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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2005 23:17
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How about in the spirit of free speech (to a degree) we keep it open?
KK
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xemxija
Member
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2005 23:34
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Should I be paranoid? Seems each time I add a post people start crying for the locking of the thread. Really people, I'm not that dangerous.  
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nicoll
Member
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2005 02:00
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I am amused, please don't lock the thread
Nicoll
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2005 05:08
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Xem - you scare me 
KK
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kevkc
Member
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2005 15:45
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I also think this should be kept open. Closing "before things get out of hand" is unnecessary censorship and essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I would worry, however, that this thread is in danger of becoming one large repetition.
Those in favour of mourning the Pope consistently repeat the same old "he was generally a good man" arguements. Those against consistently repeat the "We want recognition that we have an opinion" arguements.
I also feel I should point out how childish some people are being here... The whole "Ugh, screw this, I don't care. I'm leaving this thread" argument doesnt hold water for me. Especially since these people have proved they're still reading the thread. For the love of [that three letter word beginning with G], drop the dramatics  If I wanted to see a diva, I'd look in the mirror  :D
Anyhoo, I'm all for the freespeechyness. As long as things stay nice, let's keep 'er open!
*applauds, holds parade, hands out cookies, awaits white smoke etc.*
KC
*crosses fingers* Anyone but Ratzinger...
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wedge
Member
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2005 18:30
Reply
Layin' the smackdown on Heresy since 1981..
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shakeycat
Moderator
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2005 22:44
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Oh Paul, you have such a way with words. When are you going to become pope?
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wedge
Member
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2005 12:32
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After Benedict XVI.
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daecrist
Member
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2005 22:05
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Looks like they elected Ratzenger. Guess that means no birth control for a few more years at least.
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2005 23:01
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and inaction in telling those it's okay to protect yourself and your partner from AIDS
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nobbe
Member
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2005 02:14
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In official response to the requests that this thread be closed, I offer this:
Request Denied.
Now, to explain that. . . This thread isn't breaking any Prime Directives by existing. Right now, it's just a debate with people pointing out arguements one way or another. Until this thread does actually break PDs, it will not be closed.  Complaints can be sent to my e-mail.
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austins
Member
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2005 21:29
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<!--QuoteBegin--kittykat+April 19 2005,23:01--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (kittykat @ April 19 2005,23:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->and inaction in telling those it's okay to protect yourself and your partner from AIDS<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>I really don't buy it. <br><br>To protect yourself and your partner from AIDS.. Stick to sexual relations with your partner.. <br><br>Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, AIDS does not generally tend to magically appear in an uninfected couple when they are engaged in unprotected sexual acts with each other.<br><br>In actuality I believe you will find that the Pope is somewhat against the cause of the spread of AIDS, which is not unprotected sex, but promiscuity.<br><br>Once again, people listen to one thing the Pope has to say.. "No Condoms".. and so it's then his fault that people get AIDS. When he also says "Don't screw everyone you meet" (NB: Not direct quotes). <br><br>But oh no, you don't want to hear that, because then he's given you a valid solution for the problem which you claim he's causing in the first place, and you'd have nothing left to complain about.. (Heaven forbid).<br><br>PS.. Like it or not.. I believe that God loves you!<br><br>Have a nice day!
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2005 23:12
Reply
Hmmm yeah how's the abstinence only teaching working out for you?
What?
It isn't?
*gasp*!
You mean hundreds of years later people still ignore it? Gee - I'm shocked.
And while you might not give a damn about those having more than one partner (which is exceptionally callous btw) what about their wives? Their children? It's okay for them to die from AIDs or be orphaned? They can't even get the best medical treatment for something that certainly wasn't their fault.
You'll have to excuse me if I don't think that the "all sperm is sacred/stop having sex!" message takes priority of saving a few thousand lives (overpopulation or AIDS related). Frankly if I knew there was something I could do to save some lives (and I'm not going to pretend everyone would actually pay attention) I'd do it. I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to push exactly the opposite.
PS like or not there is no god and you're just wasting your time and personally I'm in no big rush to sign up to a religion considering some of their advocates.
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osiris
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2005 06:56
Reply
Hm, I'm not completely up to date with everything but last I heard is we had Neither proved nor disproved the existance of God, Osiris, The almighty Bob. Or my evil cat fluffy that shoots fire out of his eyes and torments Tachyon when he comes to visit.. There may not be a god but does there have to be? Is not the whole purpose of Religion to give people hope and something to look forward to as well as a guide to morality?
Anyways to the Pope issue, I've held back on replying, This man led 1.1 billion Catholics world wide.. greater than the population of the UK and the US. If he wasn't a world leader what classifies one? Is a death worth Mourning only if you agree with the deceased persons beliefs? It's been said before but is it not proper to respect those who are mourning a loss? I might just be rambling as it is still early, But is it not improper to speak ill of the dead? Personally, If my friends Respected Looked up to, believed in or followed someone while I did not, and that person died. I'd show them enough respect to allow them their grief without casting my derision on it. But, that's just the kind of guy I am.
Now.. who wants pie?
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wedge
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2005 09:13
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<!--QuoteBegin--kittykat+April 20 2005,23:12--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (kittykat @ April 20 2005,23:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hmmm yeah how's the abstinence only teaching working out for you?<br>What?<br>It isn't?<br>*gasp*!<br>You mean hundreds of years later people still ignore it? Gee - I'm shocked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>The wills of the majority rarely ever constitute a moral truth. Just cause everyone else does it and society accepts it, doesn't mean its right, dears.<br><br><br><br><br>Happy Paul day.<br><br><br>Paul
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2005 09:25
Reply
<!--QuoteBegin--osiris+April 21 2005,06:56--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (osiris @ April 21 2005,06:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hm, I'm not completely up to date with everything but last I heard is we had Neither proved nor disproved the existance of God, Osiris, The almighty Bob.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>Hmmm and? ask any god believer and they'll state emphatically that there is a god. There's no particular reason why I should modify my statements to pander to that.<br><br><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> But is it not improper to speak ill of the dead? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br><br>Really depends on the person who has died. Besides hypocritically pretending you thought someone was the greatest thing since sliced bread isn't proper either.<br><br><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->The wills of the majority rarely ever constitute a moral truth. Just cause everyone else does it and society accepts it, doesn't mean its right, dears.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br><br>And clearly being "right" is far more important.
<br><br><!--EDIT|kittykat|April 21 2005,09:39-->
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kevkc
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2005 10:50
Reply
<!--QuoteBegin--kittykat+April 21 2005,09:25--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (kittykat @ April 21 2005,09:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->And clearly being "right" is far more important.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>Not being a smartass or trying to be rude, here...<br><br>But to be honest, KK, it seems like you're the one who really wants to be right. I agree with a lot of what you have to say, actually, but I think some of what you're saying is phrased in a very confrontational and/or rude manner. Perhaps you might want to think about what you post for a few secs longer before you do? The ol' count-to-ten thing? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smi.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--><br><br>Oh, and also, a quote from my friend Daniel when Anthony and I were having a similar debate/argument about the church... "Look, there's no point in debate. You'll ##### your opinion at him, he'll ##### his at you. In the end, you'll both still stick to your original opinions but now be pissed off with each other. So shut up, you two <!--emo&:v--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bro.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':v'><!--endemo-->"<br><br>Daniel is wise...<br><!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/win.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo--><br>KC
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2005 11:18
Reply
Not right as "in the right" right as in good and actually that was after much consideration.
I'll make a note to put more smileys in my posts to make them softer
KK
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eagle
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2005 11:54
Reply
HAPPY PAUL DAY!!!!
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2005 12:49
Reply
You squished it!
KK
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xemxija
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2005 21:42
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KK,
"PS like or not there is no god and you're just wasting your time and personally I'm in no big rush to sign up to a religion considering some of their advocates. "
That quote made me laugh, for a LONG time, thanks!
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2005 23:05
Reply
Well what on earth would possess someone to make such a comment to someone they *know* is an atheist?
and ARGH! It's Qatt! *runs screaming in abject fear*
KK
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2005 06:14
Reply
I thought this thread was about OTF's alert status, not religion...
I think that when it comes to religion, everyone's entitled to their own beliefs, no? You might disagree with those beliefs, but they're still entitled to them. Arguing about them won't really get you much of anywhere...
And no one said you had to like the Pope, or mourn his death. But showing solidarity doesn't depend on that. It's perfectly feasible, reasonable and well, nice, to show someone solidarity without feeling the same as they do... or is that just me? I mean, sympathy is possible without empathy...
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austins
Member
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2005 17:50
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<!--QuoteBegin--kittykat+April 20 2005,23:12--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (kittykat @ April 20 2005,23:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->PS like or not there is no god and you're just wasting your time <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smi.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> and personally I'm in no big rush to sign up to a religion considering some of their advocates.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>You better hope you're right... <br><br>Let's say you are right.. I'm no worse off than I am now.. <br><br>Let's say you're wrong, an I'm right?.. Can you say the same?<br><br>You're telling me you've never been dead sure about something, only to find out you were wrong? <br><br>Oh and by the way, I personally have no problem with birth control.. (No puns about having two kids <!--emo&:P--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/ton.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':P'><!--endemo-->)..
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rpmobsession
Member
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2005 18:04
Reply
<!--QuoteBegin--osiris+April 21 2005,06:56--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (osiris @ April 21 2005,06:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is a death worth Mourning only if you agree with the deceased persons beliefs?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>Yes, other wise you are completely fooling yourself. It's like saying you like someone to their face one minute, and then going behind their back and talking trash about them. <br><br>And, so, we are suppose to mourn someone's death just because they were a great leader? And, respect the ones mourning them? But if George W. Bush were to die, how many Europeans (especially) would mourn and stand behind the mourners!? I doubt very little of you would...<br><br><br>-RPMObsession
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eagle
Member
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2005 19:40
Reply
Rompy, dear, Osiris lives in the US. Come to think of it, you're the only American to have spoken out in this thread against the use of the black alert. The rest of the people who have spoken out are from--you guesed it--Europe. Now, I'm not one to argue that there's a geographic bias, so now that my points made I'll leave it alone.
And besides that Rompy, you know what? You're wrong.
A very good friend of mine has a grandmother whom I don't particularly like. Okay, truth be told, I actively dislike her. I find her to be a deplorable, manipulative woman who cares more for asserting what she thinks is best for people than listening to what people want (some might call the latter-most a product of old age, I suppose =P). Now despite all this, my friends grandmother is, after all, my friends grandmother, and her mother's mother, and despite detesting her grandmother from time to time, she does love the woman. So, does that mean if her grandmother were to die I'd just bite back with "oh well, you're better off anyway. What say we throw a party?" Of course not. I'd mourn with her and offer support because she's my friend and seeing her pain hurts me. That's what friends do, they support each other.
If you honestly can't sympathise with your friends' pain, I truely pitty you. Paul cried. Alex cried. I cried. You threw dirt in our faces. Thanks for that.
regards,
~Eagle~
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crazytexan
Member
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# Posted: 22 Apr 2005 21:55
Reply
I do like the Pope's big pointy hats... *nods*
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richard
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 2005 00:57
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->It hasn't got out of hand, it won't get out of hand.<br><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br><br><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Paul cried. Alex cried. I cried. You threw dirt in our faces. Thanks for that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br><br>When people hurt eachother with the things they say here, do we still think things are not getting out of hand? <!--emo&:v--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bro.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':v'><!--endemo-->
<br><br><!--EDIT|richard|April 23 2005,00:59-->
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 2005 05:25
Reply
<!--QuoteBegin--austins+April 22 2005,17:50--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (austins @ April 22 2005,17:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->[quote=kittykat,April 20 2005,23:12]PS like or not there is no god and you're just wasting your time <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smi.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> and personally I'm in no big rush to sign up to a religion considering some of their advocates.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin--austins+April 22 2005,17:50--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (austins @ April 22 2005,17:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->[<br>You better hope you're right... <br><br>Let's say you are right.. I'm no worse off than I am now.. <br><br>Let's say you're wrong, an I'm right?.. Can you say the same?<br><br>You're telling me you've never been dead sure about something, only to find out you were wrong? <br><br>Oh and by the way, I personally have no problem with birth control.. (No puns about having two kids <!--emo&:P--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/ton.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':P'><!--endemo-->)..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>There wasn't any call for your PS - I assume you don't go up to (for example) Jewish people and tell them you believe Jesus loves them. If you're going to aim such comments in my direction the reply will always be similar <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smi.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->. I wouldn't normally make such a comment because frankly what someone cares to believe is their own business, but don't try selling it to me.<br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Anyhow - actually RPM used a good analogy there - how well do you imagine it would go down if it were used for GWB? Or even Queen Lizzy for that matter? <br><br>We're not saying people can't mourn or shouldn't mourn we're saying not all of us feel the same and don't appreciate it being implied that we do (for all the various reasons previously highlighted) - >for example I have (I doubt anyone has) absolutely no issue what so ever with Kame's thread in announcements because it isn't making a statement for every single person in the outpost. <br><br>If you really don't understand (either comprehending or agreeing with) our POV on it then I really doubt there's anything more we can do to explain it (or justify it for that matter) to you <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smi.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--><br><br>KK
<br><br><!--EDIT|kittykat|April 23 2005,05:35-->
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eagle
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 2005 11:30
Reply
Romp's point does have validity, but I think my rebut certainly does as well.
Kathryn's absolutely right in what she's said in her last post, and so was I. Neither view really contradicts the other. Where we do disagree, however, (and where we may never truly come to terms) is that I feel in such circumstances where a grief is felt within a large subset of the OTF community--and indeed, in this case, the planet--it is appropriate for the site as a whole to to publicly and officially acknowledge its grief and offer its respects to both the deceased and those who mourn. I understand and respect Kathryn and Jeremy's reluctance to set such a precedent, especially in a case with such strong religious overtones. I also realize that to the end of respecting those reservations, my wording for the black alert message could have perhaps been different. I should hope, also, that the same understanding and respect will flow in the other direction.
Regardless of any carte blanche feel the words on the update itself may have had, and on a grander scale, regardless of whether you may agree with this or anything else that's done at OTF, remember that your friends on the EC (yes J, friends) are fairly intelligent people who don't enter into such things any more lightly than you would. We did not, after all, just decide that since black is the new white we should jump on the bandwagon with a new alert colour. If nothing else, remember that we do have the best of intentions and that we have given thought to what we do. Who knows, we might have a completely different reason for doing something than what you (and that's no 'you' in particular) thought we did, and after we explain it, you might even agree with us--or at the very least, be able to understand and respect why we did it.
If you disagree with something, you are of course welcome to say so. You can question, you can challenge, you can flat out disagree. You're welcome to do it in the forum, and in some cases a public discussion is warranted. In most cases though, I myself would prefer reading about it in my inbox than over here. This is not about me wanting to save face or keep up some sort of imaginary facade that everything the EC does is universally agreed with. I prefer receiving an e-mail from someone who feels strongly about something for this reason: Confrontation in private is less likely to put people on the defensive and more likely to promote calm, rational discussion. We did eventually get to that part in this thread, but only after the unplesantries that seem almost a necessity in an online forum.
So yes, when in doubt, give us the benefit of that doubt and send in an e-mail with your concerns. Send it to one of us. Send it to all of us. Send it to some of us. I don't really care. Let your concerns be heard and dealt with. If you don't happen to have a friend on the EC, then chances are that you at the very least have a friend who does; they can serve as an avenue of communication for you. If there is truly something going on that bothers you don't just fume about it and spread discontent--bring it up with someone who can do something about it. At the very least, you'll be able to get an explanation of why something is the way it is.
Alright, I think I've said enough to drive my point home. Personally, I think the discussion on the topic to be pretty much wrapped up. The thread will continue to stay open though, should anyone else have something to say.
regards,
Captain Eagle
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