Spoiler Ridden Speed Reader HBP Discussion Thread (1)


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Author	Message
daecrist Member	# Posted: 16 Jul 2005 16:37 Reply Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince has finally hit the world, and there's bound to be a lot of excitement about the Boy Who Lived. This thread is a catch-all for people who want to discuss Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. Please keep all spoilers within this thread, however, so as to not ruin it for everyone else who hasn't read the book yet.
kittykat Member	# Posted: 17 Jul 2005 02:15 Reply I had it read in something stupid like 4 hours (couple of unavoidable breaks inbetween though). All I can say is AH! I'm not 100% convinced that Snape is a total bad guy. I still see him as a "double agent". When's the next book?!
daecrist Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2005 01:27 Reply I'm not sure. The usual wait between books has been anywhere from 1.5-2 years. I also sped through the book in a few hours after getting it, and I haven't been able to discuss it with anyone since everyone else I know is taking their time. I'm also not entirely convinced that Snape is a bad guy. Dumbledore's "Severus... please" sounded less like he was begging for his life and more like he was asking Snape to finish him off. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Dumbledore was sacrificing himself so that Snape would finally win the trust of the Death Eaters. I also thought it was interesting that he kept disarming Harry, but that he also stopped the Death Eaters from attacking him. On the other hand, him being a double agent is pretty much shot down since no one in the OotP trusts him now that he's killed Dumbledore, so the purpose of him being a double agent if he is escapes me right now. The one thing that really upset me was the Spiderman ending that Rowling pulled on us with Ginny. It's been obvious that the two of them loved each other since Chamber of Secrets, and then he has to go all noble. She knows what it's like to face Voldemort, she's the only person in living memory other than Dumbledore and Harry who has faced Voldemort. She's proven that she can take care of herself and that she is quite capable of taking on the forces of darkness, and Harry telling her they had to be apart at the end didn't ring true to me. Hopefully they'll wind up back together by the end of the 7th book. At this point I don't see how on earth she'll resolve this in one more book, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.
silvrefyre Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2005 02:55 Reply I'm in two minds about Snape too...it all seemed pretty obvious at the start, but Dumbledore's trust in him swayed me ... then again, Dumbledore has acknowledged he's not right all of the time. Looks like next book's not going to be at the school though. Someone i was talking to last week said she reckoned JKR would have to do an eighth "life after school" book ... perhaps no need now?
kittykat Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2005 04:15 Reply Well it looks likely that the next book will be the conclusion. I have to say I was irked by the Ginny thing although me and my mate were feeling smug since we saw that relationship a mile off If no one trusts Snape in OotP doesn't that put him in perfect position to be a double agent? I think that either Dumbledore knew he wasn't going to survive anyways or had told Snape previously to do whatever he had to to protect his identity. Of course I could be totally wrong . KK
citron Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2005 04:53 Reply I'm not going to read this section as I haven't read the book. However, can someone please move this thread over to the library? As that's where it belongs truly. Thanks.
daecrist Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2005 08:37 Reply No, it's a Fantasy book so it's staying in the General Fantasy forum. Otherwise... Did anyone else think that the whole Half Blood Prince storyline seemed like it was tacked on? In every other book the title has also been the main thrust of the plot, but in this one it wasn't more than an interesting subplot. I didn't even think it was a very good one since it was pretty easy to figure out who it was from the get go.
navi_greenleaf Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2005 11:08 Reply Okay, so I think Rowling finally realised she only had two books to go, becase far too much information was crammed into 650 pages. As far as Snape goes, I still think he'll turn good. I mean, after all, he did make the Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa that he'd complete Draco's task if Draco was unable, and, obviously, Draco was unable, so Snape was forced to. If you ask me, I think he'll turn good in the end, but Voldemort will kill him anyway. A crime like what he did cannot go unpunished in the next book. I'm not a big fan of the whole romance aspect of the book. Romance is definitely not Rowling's strong point. It all seems so hurried and rushed. I mean, really. Harry has no feelings for Ginny before this book, and all of a sudden, he's virtually in love with her? It's unrealistic, and I kinda wish she had developed it across a few books or something. Hal, I kind of agree with you on that one. I didn't figure out Snape was the Half-Blood Prince, though, so I thought that was interesting. It just wasn't a key element to the story. It would have been like calling it "Harry Potter and the Felix Felicis" or whatever. L Anyway, I'm done rambling.
kittykat Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2005 12:09 Reply Actually I didnt the Snape half blood prince connection either, I guess I always assumed he was a "pure" blood . I don't think the books ever mentioned that Snape had a talent for potions - although I guess him being helping Dumbledore when seriously injured should of been a clue Ive always felt a wee bit sorry for him to be honest, Harry's father sounded like a total arse in school. Harry doesn't go around picking on Malfoy and Malfoy is utterly vile, Snape was just a bit well......pathetic KK
daecrist Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2005 13:00 Reply I dunno, I think that the romance was building between Harry and Ginny, it's just that it was incredibly subtle. In the first few books she was head over heels in love with him, and as long as she was in schoolgirl crush mode there was no way that he could have seriously considered her as a match. In Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix, however, you start to see subtle changes in her character. She grows up a bit, becomes more involved with the three musketeers, and is almost always with Harry to the point that he gets used to her being around. I think that he probably had feelings for her for awhile, it's just that it took seeing her with another guy to finally make him realize that he actually did like her. And Ron & Hermione have been hinted at for ages and ages. That one was a bit more obvious. I just hope the next book is 2000 pages... There's no way she's oging to round it off otherwise. She's written herself into a corner saying there will only be 7 books, and while it's refreshing to see an author who sticks to the number of books they promise, at the same time this is one series that I wouldn't mind going a few books beyond the target number.
demonvamp Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2005 18:59 Reply Just finished it Boy was that low on drama till the end But never mind me, I have a wacky theory on R.A.B QD
leia1 Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2005 19:17 Reply WTF is with Snape finally getting the DADA job and i still haven't finished the book...just had to rant a bit Paige
missmaul Member	# Posted: 19 Jul 2005 04:21 Reply I liked the book because of the enormous background info, especially the info on Voldemort. I already figured about halfway through the book Snape was probably the prince, so no big surprises there. I'm still in two minds about whether he is evil or not. I guess because of the vow it was kill or be killed for him, but wouldn't he give up his live rather than kill Dumbledore if he was good. No one in the order is gonna trust him now, so he's of no use to them. However maybe Dumbledore told Snape that he should kill him so he could be as close to Voldemort as is possible when in case Malfoy chickened out. So, I dunno yet. The next book will tell and maybe I can work it out on my second (or third, or fourth).
nobbe Member	# Posted: 19 Jul 2005 09:36 Reply I'd like to touch on a few of my thoughts. To be quite frank, I wasn't surprised that Dumbledore had to expire. I figured that his whole purpose was to arm Harry with all the knowledge that he needed to go after Voldemort. Uhm, continuing on, I was never in camp "Snape's a good guy!" I think he's a vile git and it was one of Dumbledore's mistakes. Overall, I felt the book was rushed and it didn't have the usual JK Rowling sense of magic and flow to the book. Though, I did like how she did up the bits with the Pensive. Dumbledore's end was a little anti-climatic, mind. shrug I mean, it was quick and clean. I always envisioned him going out in the middle of a fight. And what's with all the sappy love plots?! Lupun and Tonks? Harry and Ginny (though, I think it's a good match and I've been waiting for it for a while...), Hermione and Ron (also expected...) I mean, this romantic matchmaking just was flipping and flopping ALL OVER THE PLACE. I definatly think that this book should've simply been written in the exponential style that she's been following and made this one longer than the last one instead of shorter. The Canadian Version's only 607 while HP:OotP was 768 or some odd number. Make this one 800 something and the final one around a thousand. I think that's the only way she could've successfully put in all of the material in the increasing complexity manner of the past. Though, when one thinks about the aforementioned pattern of each book building on the last, I have to admit that it hit peak at around book 4 and has been leveling off since then.
kittykat Member	# Posted: 19 Jul 2005 09:39 Reply Nobbe re the romance thing...I kind of agree, but then the book isn't really aimed at adults.
tiamai Member	# Posted: 19 Jul 2005 15:51 Reply Sorry, I totally guessed that Snape was the HBP. it was the writing... small and cramped, rember teenage Snape sitting his OWL?? his writing was described the exact same way. Also he was good at potions, kinda a give away. I'm not sure if Snape is good or bad, I want to beleive the best og him, but JK has said time and time again that he really is evil. She also refuses to disclose what his patronus is or what a boggart appears to him as. It would give too much away. I'm guessing a snake if he is plain evil or a phoenix if he really is good. We find this out in book 7, we also find out why he cant love and if he is married with a son. JK has said he doesnt have a 'daughter', and given her cryptic clues I'm guessing he is or has been married at some point, perhaps he got his wife killed and that was the remorse he showed to Dumbledore. I cant honestly beleive that he was that sorry that he got the Potters killed that he would leave Voldermorte... unless he had a thing for Lily... and then we could have the whole and what if Harry is really Snapes cos that Lily Evans was a right goer.... scary! and my thoery on the mysterius R.A.B, now this is mad, but totally my own! Sirius's brother was Rijelius or something..(begins with R anyhow, too lazy tp go look) now, what if his middle name was A.. that would be R.A.Black. The books only said that he tried to leave Voldermorte, what if he got the amulet before that? One other thing, after Dumbledore died, Harry notices that the amulet is different from the one he brought back.... As for the new style of writing... this book was planned out before a word hit paper, or a key was tapped, and it shows. I thought it was way too padded out with love sick teenagers. Yes it is aimed at kids but even they must admit its a bit sappy. next time JK babe, dont kill so many trees, unless its for a good bit of drama, action, plot movement, (definate lack of plot movement, it was sluggish and jerky at the best) and suspence. Still loved it though, it was Harry Potter after all!
crewmannick Member	# Posted: 19 Jul 2005 17:24 Reply Yeah, does anyone have any theories on RAB? I was trying to think of people mentioned throughout all 6 books with those initials but couldn't come up with anything... I loved it though! The love things were a bit strong but overall it was great. The fighting and stuff at the end was especially good. I still think Harry was stupid to ditch Ginny L As far as the 7th book goes, does anyone know when it's slated for? It should be Loooong. I hope, because this one made me wish I had more... So yeah.
kittykat Member	# Posted: 19 Jul 2005 23:00 Reply Apparently the last chapter has been finished so I guess when it's released will depend on A) When the editing is done and B) when the marketing folks have decided they've eeked enough out of HBP! KK
demonvamp Member	# Posted: 20 Jul 2005 09:53 Reply Yeah, my theory was that it was Regulus Black, too.......... Queen.
missmaul Member	# Posted: 20 Jul 2005 10:05 Reply I agree on the love stories being sappy, but I thought they were funny too. Except the Lupin and Tonks one, that was completely redundant I think. Btw, there is (going to be) a pretty good interview with Rowling online. You can find it on both www.the-leaky-cauldron.org and www.mugglenet.com It's a interview held by two die hard fans so there's bound to be a few very good questions asked.
tiamai Member	# Posted: 20 Jul 2005 14:38 Reply JK has wrote the final chapter of book 7 but not book 7 itself. She says in an interview that the final chapter was written quite a while ago, giving details of what happens to the survivers when they leave Hogwarts and grow up. (there is no wizarding Uni, btw) She wrote the final chapter so that it gives her encouragement to get there and for a 'there you've done it, you'll need this' kinda thing. And we find out something very important about Lily in book 7, in (quote) two - two parts. hmmm pensieve?? anyway check it out... http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/books/book_6-7.html#seventh
quincyw Member	# Posted: 22 Jul 2005 02:09 Reply I have two burning questions and a few observations. The questions I'd like discussion on, the observations... Yeah, that too. Question 1: Horcruxes: 6; Moldyvort: Um... 2? I'm going to try and summarise as quick as I can and I apologise for not writing down the page numbers. In Slughorn's memory, Tom Riddle (Moldyvort) asks Slughorn about the Horcruxes, eventually getting around to asking if seven Horcruxes would be better and Dumbledore agrees that Moldy would've tried for that. Dumbledore also noted that those Horcruxes would've been created from special deaths. He further speculated that Harry Potter was the Sixth Horcrux. So why don't the numbers add up? We know for certain that there are at least three Horcruxes. The ring, the other one and the locket from the cave. Yet, in Goblet of Fire, during the Priori Incantem sequence, we had Cedric Diggory, the Riddles' groundskeeper, Bertha Jorkins, Lily Evans (Potter) and James Potter. No mention of where Moldy's other victims went. Backtracking a bit, a Horcruxes is rare, so rare that it's basically a banned subject and like most of the more powerful spells/charms (etc), not to mention it's meant to be kept safe and secret, otherwise it would defeat the purpose of creating one in the first place. So does anyone else believe it's possible Moldyvort turned the Potters into Horcruxes 4, 5 and 6, intending to stash them after it's done? If not, considering how complex it's meant to be... Who would the other Horcrux victims be? They're meant to be significant, yet they don't even come out during Priori Incantem in GOF! Question 2: DADA or DODO? Ever since we picked up the Harry Potter books, we've taken it for granted that DADA (Defense Against the Dark Arts) teachers don't last for a year. However, it's not until HBP that we know why this is so. But has anyone actually thought how disturbing that is? Let's review. Tom Riddle becomes Moldyvort and unleashes madness. He hears a prophecy and tries to bump off Harry Potter, which backfires. With me? The fact that this is Tom Riddle means before Moldyvort. Harry Potter is now sixteen. So... Sixteen years, plus however much time in between... Are we seriously meant to believe that Hogwarts has had sixteen (or more) DADA teachers?! Observation 1: Secret Keepers, Phoenix Headquarters and Umbridge This was something I'd noted a few months ago, before HBP came along. Snape, in Chapter Two of HBP noted that he can't reveal the locations of Order of the Phoenix HQ because he's not the secret keeper. He can talk about it, but can't reveal that information. So... In OOTP, Harry (Potter) could've just drank the veritaserum and couldn't have told Umbridge where the HQ was, because he wasn't the secret keeper. Similarly, he didn't know where Dumbledore was, so he would've been telling her the truth. Observation 2: Patronuses and their significance In HBP, we learn that Patronuses can change if there's a signifcant um... Change to the person. Yet above all, Patronuses are unique to each person. For example, Harry's is his father (so to speak); Dumbledore's is a Phoenix (Fawkes); Tonks' new one is meant to be a Werewolf (Lupin) etc So did anyone else wonder, in OOTP, if Hermione's is significant. Otter. Hermione. Both have big teeth!
demonvamp Member	# Posted: 22 Jul 2005 07:36 Reply I think you're thinking of beavers. Otters have sharp cat style toothy pegs QD
missmaul Member	# Posted: 22 Jul 2005 09:01 Reply All right, gonna have a go at those two questions. As for the first one, I don't think James and Lily would be number 5 and 6. Too short notice, since my guess is that it takes time to make a Horcrux. You pick and item, kill a person and then have to put it somewhere. Voldemort wouldn't have had the time to put the items anywhere. Also he gave Lily the option to live if she step aside and clear the way to Harry, so she didn't definitely had to die. Who else would be the significant deaths I dunno. However they didn't appear in the priori incantatem becauce that just caused to let "last recorded deaths" to show up, not the most signicant o important. Probably the Horcrux deaths happened (much) earlier and there wasn't any time to reach them. (does this still make sense? I hope so) I guess that there have been many DADA teachers. I mean the job is really cursed. So yeah, we're meant to believe that there have been a lot of DADA teachers over the years. MM
kittykat Member	# Posted: 22 Jul 2005 10:19 Reply Can a holocrux be a person do you think? ie when Voldemort was trying to kill harry did he transfer part of his soul into him?
demonvamp Member	# Posted: 22 Jul 2005 14:26 Reply <!--QuoteBegin--kittykat+July 22 2005,10:19--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (kittykat @ July 22 2005,10:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can a holocrux be a person do you think?<br><br>ie when Voldemort was trying to kill harry did he transfer part of his soul into him?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>Maybe by accident? It would perhaps explain why Harry has some of Voldy's abilities, because he is part Voldy.<br><br>What I want to know is why Dumbledore seemed so pleased that Voldy had used Harry's blood to revive himself way back in GoF. His brief expression of triumph has some deeper meaning, I just know.<br><br>Queen.
tiamai Member	# Posted: 22 Jul 2005 15:20 Reply if harry had drank the veritserum, he would have spilled his guts to umbridge. it would have been, "no i dont know where dumbledore is, i cant tell you where the OTP HQ is, but i can tell you that snape is member of it thought i think hes a geasy git and untroustworthy, i have been having secret DADA meatings in the room of reqirement, snape has been trying to teach me occulemcy..... bla bla bla." veritserum makes the victem want to tell everything! as for making the horcruxes, im assuming there was lots of special deaths that we dont know about. what if he kills a death eater that tries to betray him? that would be special to him. as far as i know so far we have the diary, the ring, the amulet, and the whatever it was that dumbledore dealt with. so if we assume that one of the seven soul parts must remain in voldemort himself, and that harry potter is one, then we need one more. am i right? and i cant even check cos ive loaned the book out! lol oh and if you went to school where i went to school, you could totally beleive that schools go through teachers like sawdust! lol yes and the bit bout hermione and the teeth wasnt nice, she totally got rid of the overbite man! maybe she just likes otters...
quincyw Member	# Posted: 22 Jul 2005 21:47 Reply But my question is, if James and Lily Potter came out of the wand during GOF's Priori Incantem, something which happened like, sixteen years ago, why not the other victims? Moldy has only one wand, because Ollivander noted about the Phoenix tail and it had to have been the same wand in order to get Priori Incantem. Though on reflection, why none of the other spells cast by Moldy's wand (eg Imperio, stunners etc) didn't leak from the wand is also a hair scratcher. We know for a fact there are three Horcruxes. The ring (Dumbledore's hand); the diary (Chamber of Secrets); and the locket. It's entirely possible, though unlikely, that Moldyvort got sloppy and didn't finish. There are six Horcruxes, but seven pieces of soul. Moldy's, well, "sort of" a Horcrux himself, with six other pieces, forming a total of seven. But my question still stands. If, as MM agrees, that Horcruxes take a while to prepare, that rules out James and Lily Potter. Who then, would be the five significant deaths? The Horcrux being a person is an interesting theory and a friend of mine has noted Harry is indeed a Horcrux, even though he's not dead. However, this leads to a problem: A person is organic. Bodies (ie dead ones) decay and it's mentioned that Inferni have weaknesses. Fire, I believe. Inorganic objects, like lockets, rings etc, could have additional protection in the forms of spells and charms, as we see from Dumbledore's right hand. The DADA thing wasn't really a question, I was just appalled at what it meant. I actually like how they shoehorned Slughorn in, gave Snape the DADA so that the one year DADA, Harry takes Potions NEWTs to become an Auror was done well. The Patronus... Okay, I apologise for that, but it seemed just so interesting I had to tell someone. Queenie, about Dumbledore... He's just right. He tells people like Fudge these sorts of things, but they don't believe him. It's possible Dumbledore might have "bet" with the Headmaster/Mistress pictures in his office about what everything means and he was proved right. Which brings up a new question... Question 3: Living person pictures. This is a somewhat bizarre thing that's occurred to me and this isn't really a question, but I just had a thought. How are the living pictures formed, anyway? Among the most prominent living pictures we have are Mrs Black (Sirius' mother); the Fat Lady, that little knight in Hogwarts, argh, what's his name...; and of course, the Headmaster and Headmistress pictures in Dumbledore's office. This is actually odd. We know for a fact that normal Wizarding photographs/pictures move. Like on chocolate cards, Sirius Black's wanted poster, the Weasley family photo, Harry's picture on his Quibbler interview and so on. We know that, depending on the real person's mood at that time, the pictures will be different, for example Percy Weasley having left the family picture in OOTP (in Mister Weasley's office before the hearing). Yet, the regular pictures aren't able to interact as much, maybe only wave (reference Moody's picture of the original Order of the Phoenix), while living pictures like, for example, the Fat Lady in the Gryffindor common room, can speak and even get drunk. How then, are the living pictures formed? They have to be dead, for one thing. However, why don't normal people when they die (like Sirius), come back as pictures? What's so special about certain people that they can come back as pictures? We see Dumbledore's living picture at the end of HBP, even if he's not awake. Will he ever awake? Why doesn't Harry realise and go "Professor Dumbledore! You're still with us! Talk to me, sir! I need help!" Is it possible because he died before he was ready that he became a picture, but will never wake up? Is it possible that during the tombing/cremation sequence that the flash of a Phoenix like smoke cloud is really Dumbledore's soul entering the picture?
missmaul Member	# Posted: 23 Jul 2005 02:22 Reply The priori incantatem let the Voldemorts victims out in reversed order. So naturally Cedric came out first, then the muggle (can't remember his name), etc. So my guess is that everyone Voldemort has ever killed with his wand will come out during priori incantatem if the spell would work long enough. However at the graveyard it only worked for a few minutes, therefore there were only the last few victims that came out of the wand and not more. I have no clue who would be the other significants death. Also I'm not sure a person could be a Horcrux and even if that could be it would be a very risky place to store it. People are more vulnerable than certain objects. The paintings, very interesting indeed. No clue also. Maybe Dumbledore will wake up and will be able to help. Rowling clearly stated that wizards can't return from the dead, but that Dumbledore will play a part during book 7. So maybe through the painting.
quincyw Member	# Posted: 23 Jul 2005 03:29 Reply I still think that the rest of Moldy's victims should've come out during Priori Incantem. It would have made for a nicer scene in which Dumbledore speculates as to who and why, for a bigger detective story. On a somewhat different topic... I had a thought about what happens, or what will happen, in Book Seven. I believe that in the final showdown, Harry and Moldyvort will square off, with Moldyvort coming out second best and dying, thus fulfilling the prophecy that one will live while the other one dies or however it goes. However, I believe Harry will somehow succumb and himself perish. Ron and Hermione will marry and have a dozen kids, eventually Ron becoming Minister of Magic and Hermione turning into a somewhat Mrs Weasley type figure. Ginny will go back to Neville, though that won't be a marrying relationship as he's too awkward and she's still mourning Harry. And, of course, the twist is that uh... Moldyvort is really Harry, but from an alternate reality. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessss.