| Author |
Message |
a_searcher
Member
|
# Posted: 8 Oct 2007 19:19 · Edited by: a_searcher
Reply
Since the other thread was locked, the only way for me to say goodbye is by starting another one (which will most likely be locked or deleted. That would certainly fit what I've experienced.)
Most people are being decent and civil in this thread. At least one person seems to be trying to write a thesis in successful trolling. Remember folks, don't feed the trolls.
a_searcher, I'm sorry that you're so offput by the lack of Star Trek avatars. We offer a wide range of chat rooms, including two other Star Trek rooms with a variety of ST avatars that you can choose from if the lack of Captain Kirk in the main room is leaving a black hole in your heart where your tortured soul used to reside.
Nice. This is the first time I've ever been termed "A Troll" anywhere. Especially when I wasn't doing ANYTHING other than pointing out that the response was the issue I was concerned with.
The original comment was the only one specifically about the lack of avatars and it was simply voicing a dissenting opinion to the policy. So be it. It's your website. I didn't realize when I registered that this site only catered to those that only applauded each and every decision made without question. I've said, I was an infrequent visitor at best. I didn't even KNOW of other rooms or anything else. Had I known that unconditional approval by the users of the site was required at the beginning, I'd never have come in.
Tortured soul? Black Heart? Lack of Captain Kirk? (I'm not that great a fan of Kirk) Geez...that's definitely a mature way to speak to someone, especially one who in ALL the posts never went on a personal 'attack.' I responded back to statements that seemed aimed at me and I made some suggestions about issues in academia (because I have been there. I can't tell you how many research papers I had to do in both 'soft' and 'hard' sciences in addition to the business papers, presentations, and reports. And, BTW...I also had a high GPA although no one has to believe me.)
So go ahead...call me a troll if you must. In actuality I am simply someone who is not following in perfect lock step in adoration of the decisions made and decided to state my opinion. I apologize if I offended you.
Is it only me who's noticed that the people who've made the comments which have caused upset aren't actually in relevant/any leadership positions? Isn't this significant?
The only "authoritative" comments on this can come from Chun (aka Kayana) or Lee (aka Dmitri / Skevington). Lee has in fact posted on this thread. He said, "They'll be back in a few days so i wouldn't worry yourself too much...". Nothing terribly inflamatory there.
I'm sorry, I caused 'upset?' Simply by pointing out things that I get paid for by companies that are trying to improve their customer service and bottom line? I never ever once tried to act as "an authority" about this website. In the area of customer service and continuous improvement though, yeah...I am. That's how I make my living. But again, I didn't realize that only people in the position of power on this website were allowed to have an opinion about something. I never said that Dmitri's post was inflammatory. In fact, (I'll say it again... My Primary Concern Wasn't About the Avatars! It was about the response(s) to the comment. The fact that making a comment that was not a "oh gee...this is wonderful" was brushed off rudely and dismissed out of hand.)
Again..I apologize to each an everyone of you that has felt 'upset' or otherwise negatively impacted by my words. Don't worry, though. You won't have to hear them anymore. Would the owners of this site please remove any and all connections to me? As I say, I won't be coming back. And I'd appreciate it if I didn't get another email asking me to return. Seriously, that was the ONLY reason I even came back this time.
Goodbye. I'm done. I hope you all have nice lives.
|
iain
Moderator
|
# Posted: 8 Oct 2007 23:55 · Edited by: iain
Reply
Quoting: a_searcher I'm sorry, I caused 'upset?' Simply by pointing out things that I get paid for by companies that are trying to improve their customer service and bottom line? I never ever once tried to act as "an authority" about this website. In the area of customer service and continuous improvement though, yeah...I am. That's how I make my living. But again, I didn't realize that only people in the position of power on this website were allowed to have an opinion about something. I never said that Dmitri's post was inflammatory. In fact, (I'll say it again... My Primary Concern Wasn't About the Avatars! It was about the response(s) to the comment. The fact that making a comment that was not a "oh gee...this is wonderful" was brushed off rudely and dismissed out of hand.)
I'm afraid that you have misunderstood my response.
I was not explicitly or implicitly asserting that your feedback has caused any upset. Nor was I asserting that your opinion was not valid.
Rather, that the comments that caused you upset were personal statements of opinion from people who are not in a (relevant / any) position of leadership in the Outpost.
I perfectly agree with you, by the way, on the avatars front. I even agree with you that some of the responses to your feedback were at best not very constructive, and at worst positively destructive.
However, the responses that have caused upset - and this is very regrettable - did not come from people in relevant/any positions of leadership.
To use a company example of a hotel, it is like taking offence that another guest disagrees rudely with you, when attempting to complain to management.
It is not reasonable to expect all guests to follow correct feedback response etiquette in a hotel. By the same logic, nor is it reasonable to impose a rule on all Outpost members that they must do the same.
It is reasonable to expect that the relevant managers will respond appropriately - and we are both in agreement that Dmitri's post was not inflammatory.
Quoting: a_searcher And I'd appreciate it if I didn't get another email asking me to return. Seriously, that was the ONLY reason I even came back this time.
Done, per request.
Unless/until you use your account to log into a chatroom (not the forums), you will not receive any automated "would you like to return to OTF?" emails. (Normally, two are sent out; one at two months, and one at three months of absence.)
~Iain
|
kayana
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 01:47 · Edited by: kayana
Reply
Thank you Iain, I think your response perfectly mirrors what I would like to write as ST SC.
As always, if you perceive some form of mistreatment from this site why not talk to the management DIRECTLY instead of posting on the forums. I think OTF can go without the DRAH-ma. 
Both CL7 Dmitri and myself as ST DSC and SC respectively can be reached at: sector-st@admin.outpost10f.com
Thank you,
Kayana
ST SC
|
sg8472
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 04:13 · Edited by: sg8472
Reply
Hola, just to add my penny's worth, I don't think you should seriously let something like what happened on the other thread make you consider leaving. In fact, pretty much everyone has had the same experience in one way or another. We all have our own opinions, and most often than not they differ from the opinions of other people, especially in a community with a membership the spans the world, and cultures, ages, races, religions.
I will say one thing, a_searcher, not every comment that was made was directed at you. In the previous thread, I made a comment, something like "making contention out of insignificant things." You seemed to immediately assume that was targeted at you.
I was directing it at the overall thread, where the entire thing was being blown out of proportion by everyone. Don't take it to heart. It'll be forgotten by this time next week.
Of course, I can see how it started. To be truthful, your initial post was rather abrupt, so subsequent posts were equally as abrupt, and that just fanned the flames. It wasn't until later on that you, and others, really took the time to explain your side.
Of course, as is typical at OTF, whenever a thread like this opens, it's locked as soon as there's a hint that it may become an actual debate. Any descension in the Utopia is a cause for concern. People express an opinion, then there's another opinion. There's a minority who gets defensive, things get heated, and then it's closed before anything is achieved. It's not much of a debate if there's not two opposing sides with two opposing opinions, so of course there's going to be a little contention.
Would an entire room, full of chatters, be booted out if they were having a similar debate in one of the rooms?  
|
bria
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 04:42
Reply
Speaking from my experience, arguments and debates are a healthy part of a healthy relationship... of any form. If you can't argue with someone without thinking they're going to hate you forever and ever, well, then you can't really be friends with them. It's about trust.
Iain does raise a very valid point. The responses, excluding Lee's, weren't in any way representative of "the powers that be". The only thing that, I guess, is representative of that is that the thread was shut down. But Shane said pretty much everything that needed to be said on that point, so I won't go there.
But yeah, I mean, come on. If you really don't agree with something, email someone about it who can actually do something about it. The forums aren't for complaints, they're for discussions. If you're not interested in a discussion and are going to take every response as a personal attack - don't start a thread like this. People will always disagree with each other, if they didn't, we'd all be clones and life would be boring.
|
polson
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 06:33
Reply
I dunno...I sent an email to the OZD that caused the exact same kind of trouble...(with a disclaimer at the bottem to say I didn't know who to send my comments to, and no one ever did tell me otherwise)
And Bria, get out of my head!!! "If you can't argue with someone without thinking they're going to hate you forever and ever, well, then you can't really be friends with them. It's about trust." 
|
bria
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 08:55
Reply
I really don't know why we can't debate an issue without half the participants taking it personally. If I disagree with someone, it doesn't mean I hate them or I think they're silly, it means that I disagree with their view or opinion. But apparently, many people out there don't understand that.
(Note: this is not intended as an insult. If you think it is an insult, which pertains to you, then I suggest you think more about what I said.)
And Polson, must I? I like it in here. It's cozy.
|
ajcardall
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 09:19
Reply
Ta-ta
|
daecrist
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 11:35
Reply
I think the problem here is that we're trying to turn a simple complaint about the lack of Star Trek avatars into a full-blown debate about freedom of expression on the Internet.
The avatars are gone, they will be back. Dmitri, the Star Trek DSC, stated as much at the beginning of the previous thread. A problem was brought up and addressed in a matter of a few posts.
So no voices are being silenced. There is not some grand scheme on the part of the EC to try and quiet the masses. It's simply a matter of the problem being simple, and the answer being simple. The avatars are gone, they'll be back. Anything beyond that discussion is deliberately trolling up a tempest in a teacup that didn't exist in the first place.
So please let's all put an end to the dramatics and get on with our normal forum-going lives. Don't feed the trolls. It's just a chat, try not to take it too seriously, and all that good stuff.
|
sg8472
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 12:46
Reply
Actually, my comment about debates was more general, and was only exampled by the most recent thread. I've seen this happen on numerous occasions. But, I actually agreed with your opinion of the thread, which I stated in that thread myself. It did get blown out of proportion, but that's not my point.
I don't like locking threads just because we're afraid of where they may go, what they may turn in to, or what they may bring up. That's what they're here for! And if there's no valid reason to lock it, then it's just censoring, in my eyes.
Forums are supposed to be places to discuss matters. The only reasons I can see to lock a thread is explicit content (which would probably be deleted rather than locked), complaints from other members, a case of bullying or similar, or if it's no longer active.
Also, when a thread is locked in the middle of a argument it doesn't allow resolutions to be formed. Generally, I just see such situations feeding animosity between people, rather than allowing them to come to conclusions on their own. So, here we are, we've moved to a new thread and because no resolution was met a member feels undermined, and now doesn't feel welcome here.
Is it any wonder the only long-lasting threads we seem to have are games?
But I now feel like this is becoming a debate again.  Oh my! 
|
daecrist
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 12:58
Reply
We're not locking a thread because we're afraid of where it will go. We're locking a thread because someone is trying to troll the forums and deliberately baiting people. Locking a thread in that case is the same as shooting someone out for causing trouble in the chat.
I'm all for a healthy debate, but a thread that's just "omg this site sux because of something that was fixed five posts ago" repeated ad nauseum isn't a debate, it's trolling.
|
sg8472
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 13:23
Reply
Yeah, I agree, the initial post did fit that criteria. However, later in the thread, a_searcher began to communicate his opinion a lot more effectively. From that point it seemed to me to be becoming a "healthy debate".... even if I feel it wasn't necessarily a topic worthy of becoming so discussed. *lol* You, yourself, said "Most people are being decent and civil in this thread." And a_searcher was giving an opposing opinion, which I, myself, do not consider trolling, but maybe I'm just not paying attention. Wouldn't be the first time.
I also found it interesting, then, that a warning was given to the effect that the thread would be locked if it "continues to devolve" but was locked almost immediately afterwards anyway.
I don't know if you locked it or not, and I don't care. Iain did post after you, or he could've bypassed the lock, because who knows what sort of mad coding mojo he has up his sleeve, or where ever he keeps his mojo, or it could have been another moderator. I'm just of the mind that locking threads should be done sparingly, with good reason, and with an explanation there after.
|
bria
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Oct 2007 13:36
Reply
As far as I can tell, the thread was locked quite soon after people at least appeared to start listening to each other, and explaining their views a bit more. Of course, it may have been that one person was merely "baiting". But others expressed similar views and for their sake, I think, it would've been worth letting it continue until it was resolved.
Premature locking of threads is something I've witnessed a few times. Usually, it leads to people continuing the discussion via MSN, blogs, or other means, in an effort to explain their view to someone who they think they may have offended. Not everyone makes this effort, but like I say, I've experienced it. I think it's a good thing. I just don't understand why it can't just be done in the same thread where it all began. You know?
We seem to, very often, have a beginning, a middle... and no end. So we get all the animosity and all the aggression and potential insults and upset, but no one actually gets to see the happy end. I'm not disagreeing with the points you raised, Hal, and maybe this thread needed to be locked.
I'm just saying that I think that as long as it's a debate, and not a flame war, I don't see a reason to shut these things down. I mean, as long as no rules are being broken, there's no harm letting it go on, is there?
|
majin_fett
Member
|
# Posted: 10 Oct 2007 09:56
Reply
Is this still going on?
|
ajcardall
Member
|
# Posted: 10 Oct 2007 10:34
Reply
Svenja,
You can use all this in your thesis. It's pure gold.
|
lzrman
Member
|
# Posted: 10 Oct 2007 13:17
Reply
Whats going on?!
|
sg8472
Member
|
# Posted: 10 Oct 2007 13:34
Reply
Majin: Um, no? 
Andrew: I am her muse!
Lzr: Just stuff...
|
bria
Member
|
# Posted: 10 Oct 2007 14:12
Reply
Andrew, I'm going to, I think!
I bought a notebook for that today. It has sections. With dividers and all. I feel so organised.
Of course, as soon as I start writing stuff in it it will stop being organised.
Oh well!
Shane is my muse? Cool!
|
sg8472
Member
|
# Posted: 10 Oct 2007 14:58
Reply
Yes, I inspire your work!
|
bria
Member
|
# Posted: 10 Oct 2007 16:38
Reply
Are you sure you want to do that?
|
polson
Member
|
# Posted: 10 Oct 2007 17:24
Reply
i wasn't baiting!!!
|
majin_fett
Member
|
# Posted: 10 Oct 2007 18:03
Reply
I blame Polson, but that's only because I can. I seriously don't remember who said what in the whole "argument".
|
katrina
Moderator
|
# Posted: 11 Oct 2007 08:24
Reply
Wow.
|
sg8472
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Oct 2007 11:25
Reply
Wowwy!
|
majin_fett
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Oct 2007 12:22
Reply
Wowwy-zowwy!
|
babel
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Oct 2007 16:53
Reply
wowsers!
|
darth_balco
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Oct 2007 18:30
Reply
Bowzer Koopa!
|
christena
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Oct 2007 20:03
Reply
huh?
*scratche her head and goes back to her hammock in the corner*
|
fat_man
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Oct 2007 04:57
Reply
ya know for all the fuss this has kicked up you know nothing will ever change.
Yes i'm a cynic
|
sg8472
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Oct 2007 16:28
Reply
I also jive to the cynicism.
I just wanted to use the word "jive" with the word "cynicism"
|
