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skevington
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 09:54 · Edited by: skevington
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I recently posted on my CLP blog about the state visit of King Abdullah to the U.K. I basically mention briefly on the blog why this is so appauling but i'd like to just recommend anyone who lives in the area attend the demonstration. The address of the demo is all on the blog.
I'd love to make the demo but i probably won't be able to do so because it is so late in the day. I have very very bad eyes so night-driving is out of the question for me! But fellow comrades including parliamentarian John McDonnell will be in attendance. As well as Yahya al-Alfaifi (a Saudi trade-unionist) and Katy Clark MP will all be speaking.
I am informed that the event will be getting very extensive media coverage so anyone going may even end up on ITV evening news =p
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fat_man
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 16:56
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He's not really a dictator...
So reall Dmitri you should get your facts right before you post em. he has a parliament and a cabinet which need to ratify changes etc etc. And not only that he is King so you don't call kings Dictators...
There are a few other things you neglected to mention in your blog is the fact that said king donates more of his own money to charitable causes than the combined efforts of all UK and US citizens, a whopping 7 billion dollars a year.
So yah.
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skevington
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 19:43
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And throwing a bit of cash about is supposed to make up for the human rights abuses? That just doesn't cut it i'm afraid. And no he may not literally be a dictator as he is a King but his style of leadership is authoritarian as is the leadership of a dictator.
Never is torture acceptable.
Corporal punishment is never acceptable.
Beheadings and stoning aren't acceptable.
Neither is the treatment of Saudi women acceptable. Need i point out that they are practically unable to work because a woman essentially has no place in the world of work? Neither are women allowed to drive a car. Is this acceptable?
Neither can women vote. Are you okay with this?
So yeah, i have my facts straight. Perhaps we just intepret them differently. But don't expect me to condone such a regime. Or to celebrate in the brilliance of King Abdullah as he visits the U.K.
Dmitri
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fat_man
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 20:55 · Edited by: fat_man
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I should know better than get into a debate about this but, I hate it when people get things wrong. Now before i begin please understand me i'm not the biggiest fan of Saudi but you need to start taking things with a pinch of salt.
Again you Facts aren't completly straight.
He can't rule by decree. And isn't a dictatorship ruling by decree? And considering he doesn't propose ANY laws or change them, other than signing them, Seeing he's their leader but he lets the parliament do their own thing and signs what ever they do like a normal head of state.
You have some warped views about the guy being a dicator he is barely a head of state... there are a couple of other point I should bring up but that would make this post even larger than its going to be. If you want to know IM me its interesting stuff about whats going to happen when he dies.
1. The Saudi goverment has impleneted changes to stop the already illegal use of torture. its not perfect I know but they have made a step in the right direction. again this has another interesting POD for when he dies.
2. If beheadings aren't allowed, should hanging not be allowed or should lethal injections not be allowed, or should various other death penalties not be allowed.? its the age old thing isn't it? Capitol punnishment pro or no?
I'm not condoning the way things are done in Saudi, they don't follow the laws which i might add have been in use in saudi for the past 15 centuries to the word as they should do, they need at least 4 credible witnesses for them to carry out any punishment, and of course it needs to be a 3rd offense and also the person commiting the crime should not be starving et al or have mental problems, and various other things which i won't go into but it involves the cost of a goat and blah blah blah.
There are problems yes with their Legal system yes, but isn't there problems with our own legal systems. Granted theirs may be behind the times but so are other countries laws much closer to home.
Looking at the stats for capitol Punnishement, Death by Exectution thetop 2 countires are America, then China and then Saudi lagging and average 87 people behind the number 2 china. I've vever been a big fan of capitol punnishement but the worlds leading democracy is the worlds number one killer of their crimnal population.
And looking at the statistics per country, Saudi has the lowest crime rate in the world. So therefore their methods of crime prevention seem to work better than "Civilised" legal systems.
But to tottally attack another rule of law is blindsighted to say the least you have never been to Saudi, its a different society completly than the west, its likme a world away. It is for a westerner pretty much another planet and for us to judge them with our standards its just wrong to say the least.
Again i'm not saying i'm for Saudi, i've got plenty to say against the country and wahabisim in general. You are right women should have the right to vote and work.
But the thing that a lot of news oragnisations seem to miss out (to do what they do best and concentrate on the negative) is that women do infact work, in fact a new tv station only started a year or so there and the first person on Air was a saudi woman, just showing how things were changing only 10 years ago no women were allowed on saudi TV.
And not only that the recent saudi buisnesswomans conference a few years ago with Bill clinton as the keynote speaker...
its changing there slowly. But you can't expect them to change 300 years of this tradition exceptionally fast.
And i've been to saudi mulitple times, Women are treated like Goddesses honestly there they don't work because the men work, and thanks to the oil there 90% of Saudi familys are upper or middle class, and the majority of work is done foreign migrants from south asia. Have you ever asked a saudi woman how she feels about the country, most would probebly love being able to stay at home all day with the servants doing everything for them and pretty much spend their life in luxury like most saudi women.
But we are judging from a western point of view. Situations are different where you go. To Judge the east with a western point of view is just stupid, you can't go arround with rose tinted glasses on, yes things are wrong but you can't blatently hit out against something without knowing the lay of the land like you apear to be doing.
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skevington
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 12:46
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Yes i am aware of looking at things from a western perspective and yes i agree that we can't judge it by them. I recently debated this obscure view of morality in a uni philsophy lecture. I myself concluded that it wasn't appropriate to judge eastern held beliefs with western styled moral ideals.
But anyhow. I simply don't believe your comments with regards to women. I bet those women stoned to death didn't appreciate it. Nor do i bet they like having to stay home and being treated like a second class citizen with no right to drive a car or to vote in an election. They have aspirations like men - but they aren't permitted to fulfill theirs. Yes they may hold a job - a job the state decrees that they may have. Of course they may have an education - as long as they don't study law, architecture or engineering. You're right, they can own their own business if they wish but not if it brings them into frequent contact with men and as long as it is in an area the state permits.
They can't even take a holiday without their husbands permission. This is a country with one of the highest birthrates in the world - it is clear exactly what their role is in this instance.
And clearly the women who are routinely beaten aren't treated like a goddess. I recommend taking a look at google and at the number of recent cases which came into Saudi news suprisingly.
And so too i am sure the 15 makkah schoolgirls who were burnt to death in their school building for no crime other than that they were female and not wearing proper Saudi clothing. The mutaween specifically prevented these girls getting help from the proper authorities. They were not treated as some kind of goddess, but as a bunch of second class citizens whose lifes were worthless and expendable.
I really don't see how you can treat this regime with such an apathetic attitude. In fact i could have pretty much taken the things you said from the Saudi Arabian tourist website who decree that women have the same rights as men. We all know this to be a blatant lie.
But you're certainly right in saying that things are progressing but progress is slow. But lets not be under any kind of illusion as to how things really are.
No one is going to say that their legal system isn't affective. In fact it is brutally effective. Emphasis on the brutal. Yes, America isn't much better as they still permit capital punishment and you know i'm no fan of the United States. But it is a bit different - this country is still beheading people for sorcery. But a lot of the legal system is derived directly from Qu'ran itself so i don't really want to get into a debate over the virtues of the Qu'ran.
So yeah, i understand the situation as well as i need to in order to make an informed judgement. Apparently the acting leader of your choice of political party agrees with me. I can make a judgement based on my own ideals and based on my expectations of a fair and just society. I don't think they are that different from the ideals and expectations of citizens all over the world, no matter where they live.
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majin_fett
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 12:58
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Quoting: skevington Neither are women allowed to drive a car. Is this acceptable?
Yes. Have you seen women attempt to drive?
*ducks*
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bria
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 15:03
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Why are we getting involved in other people's business again?  Have we run out of problems in our own countries already? 
Sorry.
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fat_man
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 16:21
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From what I saw, and I lived both in a saudi royal household as well as what i saw while living with my friend who is shall we say less royal. The women there said they were fine with it and didn't quite care why we make such a big fuss about it. i asked roughly 31 women their opinions on it and i had 27 women tell me that they loved their lifestyle andd would never want to change it for a western one, I used to have these stupid ideals to change the world, but why should we try to change the world where from what i saw the majority of people didn't want the change that you are talking about.
With Regard to the birthrates, most saudi men have at least 4 wives as well as many concubines as they see fit. So its not one woman squeezing the kids out its anywhere from 4 up to whatever the guys libido streches to.
Yeah that burnt to death story was a fabrication, if you read the adendums it was a fire granted a fire done by overzealous idiots but it wasn't state permitted, and the persons involved in said fire are all awaiting trial and will most likely be excecuted for said crimes.
The term sorcery is actually lost in translation here so arabic being a far far far far far more complex language than English it means a whole lot more than "magic". The Sorcery is another way of saying drugging another person and doing things to their body. So in actual fact the arabic word which is translated as sorcery gives the root for chemistry and what not. So more than likely that person was beheaded for rape using drugs of some kind.
Its not really an inform decision if you are just googling things. My advice to you is stop reading the news and start reasearching it. Its like chrisitian science moniter all over again.
And I don't have a political party so i don't know where that came from, and even if I did, i'm not a peon who follows someone else blindly and i know fine well that you aren't either
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ajcardall
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 10:42
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Britain needs to sort out her own appalling society before we criticise others, as Svenja so rightly said.
And like Asim said, it seems the "harsh" punishments, and deterrents, work better than this crap we have.
I'd rather have a society where criminals are actually punished, to be honest. Here they get piss poor excuses for sentences, and they walk free without serving half of them, because "they reformed". Stop reforming them (it's b/s), and start punishing them ffs.
I used to be liberal, then I saw the foul realities of the world.
And before anyone quotes crap stats about how safe we are, you try walking the streets at night in London, Manchester, Leeds etc... and tell me you feel safe. Tell the shooting victims in London it's safe these days. It's crap.
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majin_fett
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 10:58
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Quoting: bria Why are we getting involved in other people's business again? Have we run out of problems in our own countries already?
Yes, the U.S. needs to butt out of other people's business.
Wait, you're talking about Britain? Oops.
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bria
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 11:22
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I think it's more a universal thing, to be honest. 
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osiris
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 17:19
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Eh, it really is a universal thing, people are looking at other people to try to make themselves feel better. it's dumb, but it's human nature.
I have to say though, I've never understood protests, I mean it's like OOOOH We're bored we're 20 something, we pretend to care about other people, so our friends think we're worldly and impressive lets go stand out in the middle of the street disrupt traffic, trash the place, and be all against "the machine!"
Can't say i've seen alot of recent protests change much. if anything.
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fat_man
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 18:59
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Ahh well its a shame you weren't arround for the anti apartheid movement.
At the tail end of the 80's and early 90's my mum used to drag me along to them.
It was protests staged arround the world like that that made goverments actually did offical trade boycotts of the country. In effect pushing South Africa into having democratic elections in 1994.
So Protests do ineed make a difference, you just need to pick your protests and know what and why you are protesting otherwise you are just paying lip service.
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osiris
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 22:26
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Ah, that's why I said recent, meant to specifically miss those, and the civil rights marches here in the US. THEY made a difference, it's the ones that are anti-global warming here, and the anti-war demonstrations. Especially the Global warming ones, when the protesters leave tons of trash on the ground..
I know these people are unhappy, But, lately it seems like people Here (The US mind you) would rather stand around and Rhyme poorly, than go try to make a difference with their vote. concievably if everyone who was at those protests, that were 18 and over, voted I'd wager it would have gotten a lot more done than standing around screaming. Meh, but I'm not much of a political activist.
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