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iain
Moderator
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# Posted: 24 Mar 2008 21:32 · Edited by: iain
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This was brought up briefly in Randomness, but merited its own thread...
As some of you may have noticed, OTF is now no longer on "PST", after the server move. Using Pacific Time didn't seem to make any sense, when the server physically was no longer located in Vancouver, Canada (which uses Pacific Time). For a few days, the new server ran on Eastern Time, which was simply because it's based in New York and by default configured as such. Then I had a think about it, and decided that this wasn't ideal. So, I switched it to UTC: see Wikipedia - UTC.
In a nutshell: UTC is the standard; the "baseline" -- all other timezones are expressed as offsets from UTC. For instance, when people write a time as "14:38:18 -0500", the "-0500" means "5 hours behind UTC". So, that time would be 19:38:18 +0000, ie 19:38:18 UTC.
Now... why would I think it's a good idea to switch to UTC? Surely it doesn't matter what timezone we're on, so long as people get used to it, right? It's always a constant offset, right? Wrong.
The problem can be summed up in three words: "Daylight Savings Time" (aka, the "Hour Changes").
Specifically, the lack of standardisation of DST.
Some places don't use DST at all. Many do. Those that do use DST... can't seem to agree on when it should begin and end.
Don't believe me? Well, right now, the US and Canada is on DST, but Europe is not. Europe starts DST on Sunday, while the US and Canada have been on DST for a few weeks.
Still don't think it's a problem?
Well, in the past, we weren't actually on "PST" at all - half the time. We were on Pacific Time. Half the year, PST (Pacific Standard Time), the other half the year PDT (Pacific Daylight Time). So, half the year, when times were given in "PST", or "PST" was referred to, it was wrong - because the server had moved itself to PDT. And thus leading to the confusion with countries not using DST at all, etc etc...
Still not convinced?
The Trivia on Wednesday is advertising itself as at "02:00 PST". I simply have no idea what this actually means. If I take it at face value, that would be 10:00 UTC, as PST is technically always UTC-0800. But, there again, perhaps this "actually" means 02:00 PDT, because of the US being on DST now - in which case that would be 09:00 UTC, as PDT is UTC-0700. Or on the other hand, perhaps this was written by someone who did the conversion using the European "offset", not realising the US was on DST, making it 10:00 UTC after all. Or maybe different people scheduling it had different times in mind for all of these reasons.
... or, even, perhaps it means "02:00 Outpost Time", as some people began to take "PST" as meaning, in which case it really means 02:00 UTC!
Certainly, the timezone script linked to doesn't help, because I modified it to use UTC - the script is correct, but utterly useless at doing a conversion from "PST" (whatever that may actually mean).
So when is the Trivia? I don't actually know.
I stress that I don't blame the fine Trivia folks for this - timezones are confusing. I'm picking on them only because Trivia is the most recent Updates Post out there which has a time in it, and one which would be problematic if confusion arose - as it has.
And that is why we're using UTC - so this type of problem doesn't happen in future. UTC doesn't have DST at all. So, contrary to popular belief, it's not the "UK Timezone"... or more accurately, half the year the UK isn't on UTC. Half the year, the UK is on its form of DST, called BST (at the same time as most of the rest of Europe uses DST - Iceland excluded). UTC doesn't have any form of "Daylight Savings" - it just ticks along. Half the year (including just now) the UK is on UTC+0000. The other half of the year, the UK is on UTC+0100.
So, the OTF server itself will have no "hour changes". Yes, this will mean that if your location uses DST, then your personal offset from UTC will change sometimes. But that's what DST is. At least it's consistent and completely standard now, and so everyone will know what you're talking about. Which means people will know when Trivia is. Or so I hope.
...
All of which is an extremely long way of saying:
I put far, far too much thought into what timezone the OTF server should be on. And into writing it down. Do not bother reading any of the above. That is all.
~Iain
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tiamai
Member
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# Posted: 24 Mar 2008 22:49
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I even put my glasses on to read all that....
But, totally, know EXACTLY what you mean. Honest.
 
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 24 Mar 2008 22:53
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I got lost at some point, somewhere around when Trivia happened in there. But I am perfectly happy with the UTC. I'm confused about the DST. But I'm in Canada. Maybe in an hour when I catch up I'll know what you're talking about. (ha ha ha...just a little DST humor for you...)
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darth_balco
Member
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# Posted: 24 Mar 2008 22:57
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The Trivia time for Wednesday is 2pm PST, ya know, the time in California. Add two more hours and it's at 4pm, which is Central Time, since I live in Missouri and it just happens to be in CST. But for those that haven't been on DST yet, it's 3 so whereever you live at, just add or subtract the right hours to figure out the time.
Merry Christmas. 
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dierna
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 06:03
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I've said it before and I'll say it again... Time zones confuse the heck out of me! I've never been able to figure em out. All I know is that Im in the Pacific Time Zone. That's all that matters....Unless I move to one of those states that don't do DST (Hawaii, Arizona...except for the tribal areas...which is really weird, parts of Illinois....).
Washington State has been trying for YEARS to get congress to pass a bill so that we don't have to do DST cuz frankly it's fraking nutty. Especially when congress decides "Hey! Lets change the day when we do DST to see if it saves on electricity!"...Um..that failed miserably.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 09:15
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Um... words........... *brain explodes!*
Just kidding, I understand.
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soka
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 11:40 · Edited by: soka
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Right ... that was why I had asked Pat to add the note that it's an hour earlier than usual for European peeps to that Announcement, which he conveniently (for Iain) forgot 
But that brings up the question about Trivia-Times again - should we set it for a fixed UTC-time so it's for most people starting at different times every half year or should we adjust the time in the Update-post so it actually stays 8 pm GMT (I know ... UTC replaced GMT, I mean UK-time with that), Midday P*T (PST, PDT depending on what half year - yes, I did read the whole post against the instrcutions in the bottom), etc
Or should we mix times up entirely? I had thought about making one that is convenient for Australian people next week - depending on who I get to host/assist it would be night for either Europenas or Americans/Canadians - the way it's always night for the Australians normally.
PS: this is Soka 
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iain
Moderator
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 12:27 · Edited by: iain
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Quoting: darth_balco The Trivia time for Wednesday is 2pm PST, ya know, the time in California. Add two more hours and it's at 4pm, which is Central Time, since I live in Missouri and it just happens to be in CST. But for those that haven't been on DST yet, it's 3 so whereever you live at, just add or subtract the right hours to figure out the time.
Cool! But that means that we actually had another problem, too - namely, as originally advertised, 02:00 is 2am, not 2pm (14:00), which is what you say you meant. *l*
Anyway... that means that the Trivia time on Wednesday is really 14:00 PDT, UTC-0700 (not PST, which is UTC-0800), which is 16:00 CDT, UTC-0500 (not CST, which is UTC-0600).
Since the Trivia time is 14:00 UTC-0700, that makes it 21:00 UTC+0000. Or in other words, 21:00 UTC. I've updated the Updates Board post accordingly (it was incorrectly updated to read 16:00 UTC).
So, anyone wanting to go to the Trivia, just use timezone.pl - with 21:00 UTC on Wednesday - to get the Trivia time. Or work it out, using the Outpost clock as seen in the chatrooms - which is set to UTC.
Quoting: theta Or should we mix times up entirely?
I would very strongly advise announcing all times in UTC - which is what the Outpost clock is set to, and will remain set to for the foreseeable future (if not, forever).
I'd also advise (but less strongly - this one's up to you) moving the Trivias with DST, simply because most people are in places using DST. So half the year the Trivias would typically be announced as 20:00 UTC (12 PST = 12 UTC-0800; Autumn/Winter), and the other half the year as 19:00 UTC (12 PDT = 12 UTC-0700; Spring/Summer). Whether you want to move Trivias with European or American DST is entirely up to you. Announcing the times in UTC removes all ambiguity from the equation.
Oh... and please announce the timezone as UTC, not GMT. People otherwise get confused, with application of European (and especially UK) DST. It's a common misconception that the UK is on GMT all year round. It's not. Half the year, the UK is on GMT (UTC+0000), the other half the year it's on British Summer Time, BST (UTC+0100). People tend to inaccurately call both timezones "GMT", which is just another round of headaches. "UTC" has no such connotations.
(And if you're a true pedant, there are differences of up to 0.9 seconds between GMT and UTC anyway. And the Outpost clock is truly set to UTC, not GMT, to within a smaller fraction of a second; we're using NTP to maintain a highly accurate clock -- which I installed for the first time on our old server about a year ago, because as you may recall, the clock before that kept drifting off by >15 minutes, and sometimes hours, if left to its own devices, thus further confusing everybody. I put NTP on our new server too for the same reasons. Therefore, for the past year or so, our Outpost clock has been accurate to within about 10ms.)
~Iain
(Not a timezone pedant, honest, really.)
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jayneway
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 15:10
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whoooop! now I will know when trivia is without counting on my fingers =P
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 15:45
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Seriously. Why are time zones so complicated? I am SO confused.
PST worked so wonderfully for me. I thought of it as "Vancouver time" and I'm one hour ahead of "Vancouver time" and since we change our clocks at the same time as B.C. it just made life so simple to do the calculations...
Now I'm required to do math. 
P.S. I'm trying to be funny. I'm really fine with the changes.
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 17:07
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right so the trivia is at 21:00 GMT?
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iain
Moderator
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 17:42
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Quoting: kittykat right so the trivia is at 21:00 GMT?
Yes. (Give or take the fractional second difference for the pedants out there - which is utterly irrelevant as this is a human activity, where seconds - and even minutes - of inaccuracy are tolerated.)
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 20:44
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Quoting: iain Yes. (Give or take the fractional second difference for the pedants out there - which is utterly irrelevant as this is a human activity, where seconds - and even minutes - of inaccuracy are tolerated.)
Or, if you're in Ireland, hours.
Seriously though, Iain, even if you did put far too much thought into this, I approve! And time zones aren't really that difficult. Since, you know, once you've figured out your own time difference with UTC, it stays the same. Give or take an hour, fine, DST and all that.
But still, it's not exactly high-level maths. Even I understand it and that's saying a lot.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 20:45
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Additionally, if someone wants/needs me to change the Trivia update-maker forms, I'm game.
Just in case you guys don't have anyone else to do so.
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iain
Moderator
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 21:35
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Quoting: bria Even I understand it and that's saying a lot.
Is "Yes; it is." an inappropriate response under the circumstances?
*ducks*
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 23:10
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It's appropriate in the sense of being correct.
It's inappropriate in the sense that it's insulting to me! 
(Note: "Insulting? Wow, you catch on fast" is DEFINITELY not an appropriate response to this. :[ )
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christena
Member
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 01:33
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wow.. I could feel my eyes cross just like they used to when Iain sent out an email to ISA so very long ago
I'm in EST...our time even confuses me
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 05:47
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Cinna, I still get emails from Iain that make me a little dazed for an hour or so. Not that i'm complaining. I enjoy the attention, even if I don't understand it.
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hobbie
Moderator
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 11:17
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I think the system isn't fair. With PST, North Americans had an advantage, and UTC makes it easier for those of us in Europe. In my opinion, we need more rotation.
What I would suggest is cycling through all the timezones every now and then. I suggest every day, for maximum effect. A simple way to do that would be to either add or substract an hour every 24 hours, although I would be happy with a randomized process, too.
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soka
Member
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 13:56
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I'm sure all maths-teachers around the world will thank you for that suggestion, Hobbie
I suggest switching to 24-hour time in updates though, so people keep confusing 15.00 with 5pm and such - makes it even more fun
Speaking of which, I still don't know if 12 PM is midday or midnight, if you wanted to be a pedant (like Iain) you'd have to say 12 M for midday anyway, as it's neither Post nor Ante but Meridiem itself
Right, another useless post ...
Soka
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iain
Moderator
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 14:24
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Quoting: bria (Note: "Insulting? Wow, you catch on fast" is DEFINITELY not an appropriate response to this. :[ )
"Wow, you caught on marginally less slowly than I was anticipating."? *looks hopeful*
Quoting: hobbie What I would suggest is cycling through all the timezones every now and then. I suggest every day, for maximum effect.
Ahh, Hobbie Standard Time - the only timezone based on the rand() function...
Quoting: theta Speaking of which, I still don't know if 12 PM is midday or midnight
It's midday.
~Iain
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demonvamp
Member
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 16:08
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Speaking as one of the confused... maybe Iain can convert his uber Anniversary time converter into one for all the timezones relative to UTC and we can have a link below to clock? Because I barely had a hang of PST half the time. Or maybe some fancy application thing... or cake!!
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iain
Moderator
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 16:32
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Have you seen timezone.pl? Adding it beneath the clock is a good idea though... I'll do that.
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soka
Member
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 17:37
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Beneath what clock? Now I'm confused
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iain
Moderator
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 17:56
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Front page, top left-hand corner.
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mezoti
Member
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 20:00
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No, all of Illinois observes DST. Parts of Indiana don't.
And love?
You're weird.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2008 20:07
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Iain, I'm taking that as a compliment, and feel proud that I have managed to exceed your anticipations.
Also, I vote "no" for Hobbie Standard Time.
On second thought, that means you'll definitely do it just to annoy me, so I'll vote "yes".
Which you'll then take at face value just to annoy me, so I'll abstain from voting.
...yes, you see, this is how democracy works!
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soka
Member
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2008 00:16
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I think the Standard is definately wrong there, it should be HRT - Hobbie Random Time.
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2008 03:04
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I think we should make Hobbie our king.
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2008 03:20
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Okay back to the time zone thing. I'm GMT -7 hours. So what the heck do I write in the UTC time converter? Is there something somewhere that tells me what time zone I'm in compared to the UTC? Because I only know what I am to the GMT.
P.S. I put in -7 hours and got the wrong time on the converter.
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