Real-time chat (2)

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 03:19
Reply

Your not the only one

!

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 04:04
Reply

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not against change, but this is one change I'm not sure that I agree with. If I wasn't ready to ready to read a message before, I didn't have to read yet. When I was ready, all I had to do was click "Receive". To me, this was a great system. It was unique, and worked.

I wanted to like the new (test) system, I didn't try to be negative right away, I gave it a shot. It's not to the point where I will avoid the chat, but I don't like it.

shakeycat
Moderator

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 05:58
Reply

The visual setup of the chat suits the Send/Receive/Clear ("SRC"), not this auto-refresh. I can only see 3.5 posts at a time on my laptop. Everything is too bulky.

I think our atmosphere would be lost if we went to an IRC style.

I wonder, would it be possible to run a perfect IRC style parallel with classic SRC style? On the Login page, I could choose which one I'd like to run, but it'd be the same room. That way, Kaela won't vomit, and Lzrman can sneak into the bathroom at work and chat easily on his ipod.

There is something to be said for our classic old-timey chat style. It scares noobs, but I find it rather charming. It's also very accessible to the many people whose computers and browsers are out of date.

Kind of like a time machine.

kaela_donos
Member

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 06:53 · Edited by: kaela_donos
Reply

There are three core elements to Outpost10f.

The first core feature is ISA, which grants the ability to remove trolls and troublemakers immediately. This gives a sense of credibility and responsibility to the site, and ensures safety for all of its members.

The second key feature is community involvement. New members are welcomed and are integrated into a family of common interest. It is normal for members to combine their efforts on group projects for the outpost, with each member having an opportunity to contribute. The strong bonds formed by these collaborative efforts extend far beyond these projects. This has helped form countless friendships.

The final key piece is the chat. The chat has a forum set up which makes it easy to work with and creates a unique way for its members to multitask while interacting with each other. The unique set up helps to set the outpost apart from its competitors.

Although additional features and characteristics help an organization to grow, ultimately it is the core ideas that serve as the backbone of the outpost. It is these core values which drive the outpost and helped to keep the Outpost's strength consistent throughout these years.

ajcardall
Member

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 08:25
Reply

I agree with what Tanya said: would it be at all possible to have an option on the login page to choose either Manual or Auto refresh which still entering the same room.....?

majin_fett
Member

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 09:04
Reply

Like I've said before, I don't necessarily like this change, but if we were to take a poll and if the majority sincerely liked this change, I'd stay. This isn't enough to chase me away permanently, but I would prefer the old way.

However, I think the option to choose when you log in would be awesome.

david1
Member

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 11:11
Reply

Quoting: ajcardall

I agree with what Tanya said: would it be at all possible to have an option on the login page to choose either Manual or Auto refresh which still entering the same room.....?

Allready been suggested, Allthough Iain said it would be tough to integrate, however im thinking if all posts are stored in the same file, and its the manner in which the datat is grabbed which is different, Iain maybe doing what they suggested, login option, or have an option in their dossier to complete set task? (default set to live, so newbies are kept safe)

Quoting: majin_fett

Like I've said before, I don't necessarily like this change, but if we were to take a poll and if the majority sincerely liked this change, I'd stay. This isn't enough to chase me away permanently, but I would prefer the old way.

However, I think the option to choose when you log in would be awesome.

Im sure Iain said this is an expeeriment, and if it fail, it will get reverted. Its just testing it

.

Id just make a point here. At somepoint in time, every website always goes through a transition where somthing radical is tried, and it always splits the usrbase in half. But to make progress and to ensure there is a flood of new people, some radical idea's need to be tried and implemented, otherwise, your leaving yourself stuck behind.

Personally im a fan of the click recieve culture, and not a big fan of the realtime option, however what i lik and what otf needs to survive are 2 seperate things. todays generations comming around are impatient and like things to "just work", and in reference to the chatroom, so many new people come in, cant figure out the recieve button, and just simply leave as a result of this. If this continues without at least trying somthing different, membership will grind to a halt, no one will be on the site. As the current membership;, we all growing up and leaving the place, and without new blood whos going to replace you and your job to inject some new life into the website?

Hard decisions have to be made in times like these, and Id like to Pat the executive, Iain and Hal on the back for this, as I think this is the right decision, regardless of the negative feedback comming from some quarters.

demonvamp
Member

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 12:12
Reply

Maybe we should all just lean out our windows and shout really loudly. Though I favour the plastic cup and string method of chat.

*re-lurks*

ajcardall
Member

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 14:09 · Edited by: ajcardall
Reply

I may upset some people here, but sorry, it has to be said.

People say OTF is built around manual-refresh and it's why we're popular. If that's true why are we not overwhelmed by active members?

People say that and then throw their toys out of the pram "I'm never coming back!!!" - THAT is what is going against what OTF is about more than anything! OTF is about working together as a community, not throwing out childish ultimatums when an idea (which isn't necessarily going to be kept!) is tried out. People lashing out against change caused the stagnation a few years ago. I'm delighted we're trying something out and seeing how it goes! At least some people ARE trying instead of spouting negative hyperbole all the time.

Rant over.

EDIT: This is not aimed at everyone who dislikes it. Some people have offered constructive feedback and suggestions! Kudos.

daecrist
Member

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 14:22
Reply

And having said that we will be monitoring the new system and making changes accordingly. Remember that we are making gradual changes to the place to try and make it user-friendly, and occasionally things will get stuck briefly in an in-between place.

Things like spacing etc. will bear keeping an eye on. I don't have a problem with messages, but my display is ginourmous. It would be helpful if people who are having trouble with only seeing a few messages at a time could post their screen resolution so we get a better idea of what screen size we're trying to accommodate.

demonvamp
Member

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 15:54 · Edited by: demonvamp
Reply

*de lurks again, this could be a habit*

Way I see it it's mobile tech that's killing places like this. People want to tweet and go, or check their Facebook on the fly. I've tried using OTF on an ipod touch, it's really not easy, but I can throw out a tweet *spits* in one simple app and it will tell me when I get one back.

Changes or no changes, the way people find info on the net has run away from this format like crazy in the past couple of years and I don't know if it can be fixed short of a radical rethink. It's not all going to change with the next movie, or game or cartoon, because it hasn't. Star Trek came out last year, where are the hundreds of fans? ONTD_Star trek on Livejournal (8000 plus members in a year) for a start, and any number of Facebook sites.

It's a shame, but true.

If OTF wants to be on Twitter, or Facebook, or Livejournal, then those accounts need activity just as much as here, or it's just spreading it out thinly. I joined the OTF Livejournal page and it was dead within a week, so I stopped watching.

And I realise this is really nothing to do with the new chat, so I will exit by saying give it a chance. Change is sometimes strange and annoying, but ultimately good.

*re-lurks*

dierna
Member

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 19:25
Reply

Altho I am used to real time chats I always liked OTF's non-real time. But things always change eventually *shrugs*

I recently went to a chat room where there was the ability to pause the scroll a bit. It was still real time but the pause button made it so that it wouldn't scroll so quickly for those who are slower readers.

jamesgilfoyle
Member

# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 19:50
Reply

Heres my 2 cents...

Quoting: daecrist

Part of the problem is that you have to go through an archaic registration process, you have to deal with a complicated login form,

Perhaps the login scripts could be altered to simply be an entrance page, and an entrance button (with custom options for those with access).

Chat options (Avatars, handle colour, chatroom live/not, etc) could be defined in the Dossier system and set upon registration or upon first login and edited from the Profile Management System.

Wouldn't be too difficult to implement... During registration you could have an explanation page of the two types of chat "real-time/not" and a user can choose then which option they want. If they choose real time they could avoid setting login information until their first login under the "not real-time" setting.

david1
Member

# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 00:33
Reply

so if they havent transmitted within 15 minutes a post in the chatroom says "xgermz is currently away" ... or "XgermZ Had Been Dropped Into The Pitt To Fight The Rancor" <- I like that one.

darth_balco
Member

# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 01:44
Reply

Yeah! And off-topic, I think the front page needs a re-vamp. Nothing fancy, just something that looks fresh and more user friendly. More colorful yet sci-fi/fantasy related layout? I also think we should look into the possibility of making a mobile OTF site, for users like myself who carry smartphones. Again, nothing fancy, something that gets the job done. *l*


· Outpost 10F · Forums · Reply · Statistics · Search ·

Author	Message
korny Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 02:42 Reply I keep clicking receive.
lzrman Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 03:19 Reply Your not the only one !
ayanna Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 03:38 Reply Receive is not your friend anymore
majin_fett Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 04:04 Reply Please don't get me wrong, I'm not against change, but this is one change I'm not sure that I agree with. If I wasn't ready to ready to read a message before, I didn't have to read yet. When I was ready, all I had to do was click "Receive". To me, this was a great system. It was unique, and worked. I wanted to like the new (test) system, I didn't try to be negative right away, I gave it a shot. It's not to the point where I will avoid the chat, but I don't like it.
lzrman Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 05:44 · Edited by: lzrman Reply Majin, JD, and I have tested out Level Two-ing out a user, at that time there real-chat stops, and they are not thrown the page about being timed-out or phasered. Something you may look at. And Thermal that blows everyone out !
shakeycat Moderator	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 05:58 Reply The visual setup of the chat suits the Send/Receive/Clear ("SRC"), not this auto-refresh. I can only see 3.5 posts at a time on my laptop. Everything is too bulky. I think our atmosphere would be lost if we went to an IRC style. I wonder, would it be possible to run a perfect IRC style parallel with classic SRC style? On the Login page, I could choose which one I'd like to run, but it'd be the same room. That way, Kaela won't vomit, and Lzrman can sneak into the bathroom at work and chat easily on his ipod. There is something to be said for our classic old-timey chat style. It scares noobs, but I find it rather charming. It's also very accessible to the many people whose computers and browsers are out of date. Kind of like a time machine.
lzrman Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 06:49 Reply When pressing enter while in the TO: field you get the following error "You have caused an invalid mode fault. Please restate your command."
kaela_donos Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 06:53 · Edited by: kaela_donos Reply There are three core elements to Outpost10f. The first core feature is ISA, which grants the ability to remove trolls and troublemakers immediately. This gives a sense of credibility and responsibility to the site, and ensures safety for all of its members. The second key feature is community involvement. New members are welcomed and are integrated into a family of common interest. It is normal for members to combine their efforts on group projects for the outpost, with each member having an opportunity to contribute. The strong bonds formed by these collaborative efforts extend far beyond these projects. This has helped form countless friendships. The final key piece is the chat. The chat has a forum set up which makes it easy to work with and creates a unique way for its members to multitask while interacting with each other. The unique set up helps to set the outpost apart from its competitors. Although additional features and characteristics help an organization to grow, ultimately it is the core ideas that serve as the backbone of the outpost. It is these core values which drive the outpost and helped to keep the Outpost's strength consistent throughout these years.
lzrman Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 06:53 Reply Quoting: shakeycat I wonder, would it be possible to run a perfect IRC style parallel with classic SRC style? On the Login page, I could choose which one I'd like to run, but it'd be the same room. That way, Kaela won't vomit, and Lzrman can sneak into the bathroom at work and chat easily on his ipod. There is something to be said for our classic old-timey chat style. It scares noobs, but I find it rather charming. It's also very accessible to the many people whose computers and browsers are out of date. Kind of like a time machine. Breakroom, not bathroom, I wouldnt chat on my ipod in otf while on the pot at work TANYA! We all love Kaela, our Purple Witch and we want to keep her happy, SHES A CL6!!!!!!!!!!!! now we don't wanna loose members like this. I support having the option for both, realtime-nonreal time.
ajcardall Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 08:25 Reply I agree with what Tanya said: would it be at all possible to have an option on the login page to choose either Manual or Auto refresh which still entering the same room.....?
ajcardall Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 08:27 Reply "We all love Kaela, our Purple Witch and we want to keep her happy, SHES A CL6!!!!!!!!!!!! now we don't wanna loose members like this." Lzr, sorry, but I have to call you up on this. So we base that chatroom around what Senior Officers want and now what the membership want? Surely a poll is the better course of action?
majin_fett Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 09:04 Reply Like I've said before, I don't necessarily like this change, but if we were to take a poll and if the majority sincerely liked this change, I'd stay. This isn't enough to chase me away permanently, but I would prefer the old way. However, I think the option to choose when you log in would be awesome.
david1 Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 11:01 Reply While browsing the chatroom through my mobile phone (samsung tocco lite) the chatroom works.... HOWEVER .... its flipped upsite down... i.e. when you first enter the recent post appears at the bottem of a "300 pages long i assume) post... and then starts adding posts from there, if that makes sence. So when I make a post, I litrally have to scroll rigth the way down, right down, to be able to view the recent posts, or wait until everyones chatty enough for it to reach the top -_-
david1 Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 11:11 Reply Quoting: ajcardall I agree with what Tanya said: would it be at all possible to have an option on the login page to choose either Manual or Auto refresh which still entering the same room.....? Allready been suggested, Allthough Iain said it would be tough to integrate, however im thinking if all posts are stored in the same file, and its the manner in which the datat is grabbed which is different, Iain maybe doing what they suggested, login option, or have an option in their dossier to complete set task? (default set to live, so newbies are kept safe) Quoting: majin_fett Like I've said before, I don't necessarily like this change, but if we were to take a poll and if the majority sincerely liked this change, I'd stay. This isn't enough to chase me away permanently, but I would prefer the old way. However, I think the option to choose when you log in would be awesome. Im sure Iain said this is an expeeriment, and if it fail, it will get reverted. Its just testing it . Id just make a point here. At somepoint in time, every website always goes through a transition where somthing radical is tried, and it always splits the usrbase in half. But to make progress and to ensure there is a flood of new people, some radical idea's need to be tried and implemented, otherwise, your leaving yourself stuck behind. Personally im a fan of the click recieve culture, and not a big fan of the realtime option, however what i lik and what otf needs to survive are 2 seperate things. todays generations comming around are impatient and like things to "just work", and in reference to the chatroom, so many new people come in, cant figure out the recieve button, and just simply leave as a result of this. If this continues without at least trying somthing different, membership will grind to a halt, no one will be on the site. As the current membership;, we all growing up and leaving the place, and without new blood whos going to replace you and your job to inject some new life into the website? Hard decisions have to be made in times like these, and Id like to Pat the executive, Iain and Hal on the back for this, as I think this is the right decision, regardless of the negative feedback comming from some quarters.
ajcardall Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 11:35 Reply Amen, David.
demonvamp Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 12:12 Reply Maybe we should all just lean out our windows and shout really loudly. Though I favour the plastic cup and string method of chat. re-lurks
stav219 Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 13:30 Reply Was the successful OTF of old really that reliant on the existing, established userbase that they didn't need auto-refreshing, noob-friendly chat that didn't scare people away in order to maintain a healthy membership? Or are people now less literate, and unable to read the very clear instructions on send/receive when you first log in? I'm not gonna lie - I don't like the new system, for various reasons, not least because I'm not really sure who it's aimed at. Admittedly, I've been away for a while and only recently come back, but has there really been a great demand for an auto-refreshing chat? I used it for maybe half an hour last night, and even though there were only 4-5 active chatters in the room (despite there actually being closer to 10 logged in - zombies much?) I was finding it irritating having the message I was reading scroll down out of what is an already limited viewspace. I don't think turning it into an IRC-alike would help either, as this would take away from what makes OTF different - avatars, tags, ranks, et al. I have some other concerns, too, but as i've just got up (yeah, I know it's 1430 - it's Sunday, sue me) they escape me at present. My biggest problem? Constantly clicking receive was the only thing to relieve the boredom in a quiet chat - don't take it away! Or at least give me a big, red button to hammer for a while. OTF needs to move forward in order to stay fresh and attractive to the new guys, and I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say I appreciate you guys still making an effort with the place, but I don't see this as moving forward. OTF was different in its approach, and this is a step backwards. If I wanted an IRC based chat, I'd be in an IRC based chat. /tuppence. Dave.
ajcardall Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 14:09 · Edited by: ajcardall Reply I may upset some people here, but sorry, it has to be said. People say OTF is built around manual-refresh and it's why we're popular. If that's true why are we not overwhelmed by active members? People say that and then throw their toys out of the pram "I'm never coming back!!!" - THAT is what is going against what OTF is about more than anything! OTF is about working together as a community, not throwing out childish ultimatums when an idea (which isn't necessarily going to be kept!) is tried out. People lashing out against change caused the stagnation a few years ago. I'm delighted we're trying something out and seeing how it goes! At least some people ARE trying instead of spouting negative hyperbole all the time. Rant over. EDIT: This is not aimed at everyone who dislikes it. Some people have offered constructive feedback and suggestions! Kudos.
daecrist Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 14:17 Reply Some thoughts on this: The chat system that we've had in place was designed and put into place back in 1997. My understanding is that the whole Transmit/Receive dynamic was a technical stopgap at the time that just sort of stayed in place as a result of the institutional inertia this place is famous for. But the bottom line is that the system was already obsolete when it was tossed up back in '97. But is obsolescence really a reason to change a system when it seems to be working well enough? I think so. People have been making noise in the forums and chat room for some time now about how we're having difficulty bringing in new members. Part of the problem is that you have to go through an archaic registration process, you have to deal with a complicated login form, and once you get into the room you have the whole Transmit/Receive thing that, while familiar to people who have been coming to the room for years, isn't the most friendly interface choice to new chatters. I hated Transmit/Receive when I first came to the Outpost. I came from an autorefreshing HTML chat and the Outpost system was bulky and inelegant. I got used to the poor design over time, but I'm not mistaking the design equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome for nostalgia for a supposedly better system that wasn't really better.
daecrist Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 14:22 Reply And having said that we will be monitoring the new system and making changes accordingly. Remember that we are making gradual changes to the place to try and make it user-friendly, and occasionally things will get stuck briefly in an in-between place. Things like spacing etc. will bear keeping an eye on. I don't have a problem with messages, but my display is ginourmous. It would be helpful if people who are having trouble with only seeing a few messages at a time could post their screen resolution so we get a better idea of what screen size we're trying to accommodate.
demonslayer Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 14:38 Reply Iain do you think you could haveing two pages of same site. One running as real-time, and other old click and receive. No idea if its possible.
demonvamp Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 15:54 · Edited by: demonvamp Reply de lurks again, this could be a habit Way I see it it's mobile tech that's killing places like this. People want to tweet and go, or check their Facebook on the fly. I've tried using OTF on an ipod touch, it's really not easy, but I can throw out a tweet spits in one simple app and it will tell me when I get one back. Changes or no changes, the way people find info on the net has run away from this format like crazy in the past couple of years and I don't know if it can be fixed short of a radical rethink. It's not all going to change with the next movie, or game or cartoon, because it hasn't. Star Trek came out last year, where are the hundreds of fans? ONTD_Star trek on Livejournal (8000 plus members in a year) for a start, and any number of Facebook sites. It's a shame, but true. If OTF wants to be on Twitter, or Facebook, or Livejournal, then those accounts need activity just as much as here, or it's just spreading it out thinly. I joined the OTF Livejournal page and it was dead within a week, so I stopped watching. And I realise this is really nothing to do with the new chat, so I will exit by saying give it a chance. Change is sometimes strange and annoying, but ultimately good. re-lurks
david1 Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 17:15 Reply Quoting: demonvamp If OTF wants to be on Twitter, or Facebook, or Livejournal, then those accounts need activity just as much as here, or it's just spreading it out thinly. I joined the OTF Livejournal page and it was dead within a week, so I stopped watching. i cant say much for the other ones, but all entertainment ones WILL be updated on a weekly basis
dierna Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 19:25 Reply Altho I am used to real time chats I always liked OTF's non-real time. But things always change eventually shrugs I recently went to a chat room where there was the ability to pause the scroll a bit. It was still real time but the pause button made it so that it wouldn't scroll so quickly for those who are slower readers.
ajcardall Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 19:47 Reply Iain is working on that, Dierna!
jamesgilfoyle Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 19:50 Reply Heres my 2 cents... Quoting: daecrist Part of the problem is that you have to go through an archaic registration process, you have to deal with a complicated login form, Perhaps the login scripts could be altered to simply be an entrance page, and an entrance button (with custom options for those with access). Chat options (Avatars, handle colour, chatroom live/not, etc) could be defined in the Dossier system and set upon registration or upon first login and edited from the Profile Management System. Wouldn't be too difficult to implement... During registration you could have an explanation page of the two types of chat "real-time/not" and a user can choose then which option they want. If they choose real time they could avoid setting login information until their first login under the "not real-time" setting.
darth_balco Member	# Posted: 13 Jun 2010 20:30 Reply You know what would be neat if possible? Say you're busy doing some stuff and you're still logged in chat if you had the option to have auto-message, like some IMs do when you put yourself on away. Like it gives a message something like "I'm not here, hit me back, blah blah blah." Something like that, just saying. l
david1 Member	# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 00:33 Reply so if they havent transmitted within 15 minutes a post in the chatroom says "xgermz is currently away" ... or "XgermZ Had Been Dropped Into The Pitt To Fight The Rancor" <- I like that one.
kaela_donos Member	# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 01:42 · Edited by: kaela_donos Reply We appreciate the time and effort you have put into this change, but I would like to propose an alteration to your methods. I love change, I object to blind change. There is a difference between a Beta - a gradual change lead by testing and user input, and a blind change - a dramatic alteration that no one knew, or very few knew about, and wasn't pre-tested off of the site beforehand. The promise of possibly editing it after the fact doesn't constitute it a Beta. It starts with a plan, talking about it with your team and getting input. This is followed by an independent prototype, with panels and user testing. Next, the project opens up to Beta testing and obtaining as much feedback as possible. Finally, tweaks are to be made to the project based off of the feedback, then the testing begins anew. Only once the bugs are worked through should the project graduate to being implemented on a wider scale. This is basic management practice, nothing radical I assure you. Putting more work into research and protyopying it makes it so when you do make a change and it doesn't work out you don't waste all that time. (It also helps reduce hurt feelings!) It is a method that requires hard work. We understand and we're up for the challenge. I know you're trying, and we appreciate your efforts. But if we can alter our methods just a little, not only will people be more welcoming but your changes will be an improvement instead of just "change". Because change alone is not always better.
darth_balco Member	# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 01:44 Reply Yeah! And off-topic, I think the front page needs a re-vamp. Nothing fancy, just something that looks fresh and more user friendly. More colorful yet sci-fi/fantasy related layout? I also think we should look into the possibility of making a mobile OTF site, for users like myself who carry smartphones. Again, nothing fancy, something that gets the job done. l