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kaela_donos
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 03:00 · Edited by: kaela_donos
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AJ: Looking at it makes me sea sick because I can only see three things at once. And they scroll so quickly that it makes things hard to read if many people are talking at once. It makes it hard to use and honestly it does make me want to puke. So it's not a threat of I am leaving or else, it is, this is not working out and I can't use it. I am still in the forum!  clearly I haven't left.
Btw: I would hope people would respect me enough to listen to me and every voice that spoke!
- - -
I think that there are other ways of bringing in new people that can work better that have yet to be tapped. And I really truly did liked the novelty of the old style. Besides, The forum style did come with instructions that were quick and easy to read. And really, it only took a moment to learn the system.
If there was a system that didn't make me sea sick, still had some novelty, and had warning before it was dropped in my lap, I would most likely support it.
I would like it to be put back into the fourm style until bata testing of this new system could be done. (focusing on keeping loyal members before finding something that you could offer new members)
I'm not sure I believe that it would really be changed back. There's a habit here of deciding things and sticking to it regardless of objection. I don't think this is out of malice, or ill will, I think it is the case that after work is invested you want to move forward not back.
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deboe
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 03:25 · Edited by: deboe
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Honestly i don't mind this implementation much, but i just don't see the appeal.
It's like giving an old man a segway. He gets where he needs to go faster, but he's still an old man.
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mezoti
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 09:59
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I would like to note that I was the biggest voice against this (as I was in Iain's ear telling him I hated change and why do it and I wanted OTF to be the OTF I always knew).
But frankly, after playing around with it for a bit, I do like it. It's different, yes, but even my massively outdated computer can handle it fine so I'm happy. (My biggest worry was Jacob would fail and not keep up.)
I really like the pausing feature because that was one thing I thought was needed. As do I enjoy the fact you can keep from timing out by keeping the window open.
As for not knowing where you were when you come back.. the bar that's was on the side was a new thing a few years ago. And if I remember correctly there was a HUGE uproar.
And there is a huge uproar now. Does that mean I think everyone will like it in the end? No. But I think everyone needs to give it a chance before they hate it and vow never to return. I've seen some stuff on facebook that really makes me sad inregards to this.
OTF is dying. People make forums posts several times a year to this. And now, when we are finally moving forward, people want the old. So I think it boils down to this.. either we stay as we have been since v2 started.. or we move forward. You can't have both.
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ajcardall
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 10:39
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"And there is a huge uproar now. Does that mean I think everyone will like it in the end? No. But I think everyone needs to give it a chance before they hate it and vow never to return. I've seen some stuff on facebook that really makes me sad inregards to this.
OTF is dying. People make forums posts several times a year to this. And now, when we are finally moving forward, people want the old. So I think it boils down to this.. either we stay as we have been since v2 started.. or we move forward. You can't have both."
What Brandi said.
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tiamai
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 12:20
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I like it. I didn't think I would, but it works.
However, since I am really lazy, all that clicking transmit is annoying. Work on it 
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bilbo
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 14:02
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I love the auto refresh. but other people don't like for good reasons i believe that is needed here is option to turn off and on the auto refresh mode.
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hobbie
Moderator
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 14:35
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It takes some getting used to. After playing with it for a little while, I'm finding that it's not that different to what we're used to, though.
You just have to scroll down a notch when you're done reading, and then you scroll up when you're getting back on the page to read what you missed. Scrolling up becomes the new receive.
And, at the same time, it should make things easier for the newcomers to get the hang of the chatroom, which I think it the whole point.
Anyway, while there are obviously going to be a few adjustments needed, in the long run I'm confident this will turn out to be a change for the better.
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shakeycat
Moderator
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 19:44
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They say OTF has been "dying" for years.
It's not dead.
I don't think it's dying at all.
Sure it's different than it used to be, but we can't all walk around saying the sky is falling the sky is falling. Just look at this thread, where 28 different people have come to voice their opinions. Others said their piece in the chat. We all clearly care about OTF and the community, and we collectively want it to continue.
If a tree falls down in Cloud City, Minas Tirith, or onto Ten Forward, there is somebody around to hear it. And if they don't hear it, we have people on MSN and facebook running around saying OMG A TREE AND IT FELL DOWN COME SEE
And why do we talk about this as though we are reanimating a corpse and trying to get it a date with a pretty lady? I think the fellow is alive and well and many ladies notice him, he just needs to wink and smile back their way, and maybe buy them dinner or a wookie cookie. Sure he's older, a little grey around the edges and pudgy in the middle, but he's still attractive. His clothes are still fashionable, despite the years.
This update is the wink. ENT's recent activity has been the dental work to ensure the smile will go as planned. Now you all just have to put your coins together to see if you can buy her dinner.
She also wants to hold your hand and ask you about the next Star Trek movie, the upcoming convention, and if you think it was wrong to make Sith lords before Darth Bane.
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ajcardall
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 21:30
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Probably the BEST analogy EVER.
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david1
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 21:30
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Quoting: shakeycat And why do we talk about this as though we are reanimating a corpse and trying to get it a date with a pretty lady?
AJ wants a Date 
Quoting: shakeycat ENT's recent activity has been the dental work to ensure the smile will go as planned. Now you all just have to put your coins together to see if you can buy her dinner.
Oh yeah, and theres a lot more comming from ent
But not the hijack this thread, it is about chat update, so keeping on track..
Idea for you Iain, dynamic timer, so seconds of pause related to number of chatters in the room??
I.e. if theres just 2, no need for pause, but if there is 20, it could be quitte a hadfull keeping up
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ajcardall
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 22:47
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This real-time is genius.
The occupants list looks a lot healthier. Even if it says 15, and only, say 6/7 are talking, it looks better to see 15 than 6/7. 15 will cause more people to enter the room... and then more people are talking. Then the number goes from 15 to 20, with 11/12 people talking... and so on.
Iain, HAL: I think you've made a master stroke here.
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kaela_donos
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2010 23:58 · Edited by: kaela_donos
Reply
Quoting: shakeycat If a tree falls down in Cloud City, Minas Tirith, or onto Ten Forward, there is somebody around to hear it. And if they don't hear it, we have people on MSN and facebook running around saying OMG A TREE AND IT FELL DOWN COME SEE
Well of cores!!! if there is a change there is going to be a temporary boost in activity, it doesn't mater what kind of change it is! Saying that "oh look there is more activity now" is a really really short side measurement. Because that only shows people that are cheeking it out this week, and then may just fade into the background next week (maybe next month) and it really doesn't look at the people who come back in a month and don't stay, oh I don't like this!
You have to have long term Measurements and we don't have system set up that take into consideration other factors. WE didn't have outside TESTING we didn't do a real Bata! WE just don't know because that wasn't thought about! It is just as Tanya says, oh look, something is going on, but you can't be the hot night club on the strip for ever, you need to have something that is sustainable, testable and repeatable.
It is like investing in the Macarena (or any fad) over a 10 year period, it just isn't a good idea.
Don't fall into these logical falsies,
First, spectacles get attention
And also don't fall into the next logical fallacy that people will become complacent, there is enough loyalty people put up with bad design. Just because people are going along with it, doesn't mean it is good.
Also just because some one doesn't like it, it doesn't mean you're a horrible person and you shouldn't take it personally, it just means you should have BATA tested it and made your hard work even better!
I truly, really don't understand why these are radical concept! I tried saying them nicely, no one got it! I will say it again because I believe in what I am saying.
And this isn't only about this time, this is about the 15 times before this and the 15 times after this too!
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tycho
Moderator
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 00:28
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Ahem, this actually is a test run. nothing is final yet
And I must say... many of those ranting .. well I didn't see you around lot in the chat lately...
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daecrist
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 01:54
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To those who are upset because the change is being made I say give it time. We're not reinventing the wheel here, we're just adding a function that has been asked for repeatedly over the years. We're adding it because it was relatively easy for Iain to put together on the fly.
For those of you who are complaining about a lack of planning I would just remind you that you are not privy to all of the conversations and planning that takes place on the various mailing lists before we go ahead with something like this. There are many things that have died in development on the admin list, the team leaders list, or the R&D list in the planning or prototype phase because we decided it wasn't worthwhile.
And before the tired old argument of "Well keep us informed of everything that's being said on those lists!" comes up I'll similarly point out that that's never been done and I don't have any intention of starting since it would take forever to summarize everything that goes on. If you want to take part in those discussions then people are welcome to join a team and help out. Griping on the forums is the quickest way to get nothing done.
There comes a point where you have to go ahead and bring something online and see if people like it. You can only do so much planning and talking. Don't mistake not being a part of the decision making process with there being no decision making process at all. There is and it's working well thank you very much.
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kaela_donos
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 04:28 · Edited by: kaela_donos
Reply
Okay, i will state it more straight forward, hopefully more clearly!
On the fly is great if it is in an open Bata, next time try it first ( it is not to late for this time) that is what I am suggesting, the site clearly can handle it as it has had mult-chat before, it make it so it isn't forced on every one in basic trial stage. People are not always happy being geinie pigs.
(Keep in mind that people use this site to let go of stress, play and be less lonely, big dramatic changes, no mater how warranted are stressful and minimizing while improving the site is best!)
You can work out the kinks openly, on a trial bases where people can freely go in and out, meanwhile you can have people happily using the old system at the same time. By doing it outside the main chat you can try several trials (have mult-versions), have many Bata testers, openly show that you ARE listing. This would make people happier! It would minimize storming out ! And it would show new people visiting the site that work is being done as well as a hand full of other positive things!
(for example, you could turn one of the chat rooms, say MT or CCC into a bata test, put post after post and lobot warning people it is happing i am guessing really fast and easy, use it for a few weeks, people would notice, fix kinks and then put it to the whole chat once you worked out most of the problems, only have minor edits once the big version is up and less freaking out)
They way is what I am suggesting is, widely tested and proved, written and celebrated as well, and isn't that hard. It solves most of the problems you have heard on this forum, it makes people feel happier and appreciated and is not that hard.
and clearly the R&D department isn't working optimally if people were surprised. People should be so sick of testing by the time that it is here that the transition is smooth.
Don't hide between, oh we tried it and you didn't listen, change your methods in earnest and you may find surprising results. If we didn't listen find new ways of telling us, and new ways of showing us. Don't just slip into, we did this before. I know you guys can and do some research before you jump in.
And stop villainizing objectors and celebrate them! objections are good because it give us all a chance for self reflection. and Objection shows something else, it shows extreme loyalty, that is .. that is great! That means something has been going right though the years!
I keep talking because it frustrates me that something I have seen work time and time again isn't attempted fully. Maybe if I talk til your tired of me I will get you all to start seeing what I am actually talking about or read about it or at lest Google it, and then maybe you can even find other methods that will serve us all better.
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lzrman
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 05:05
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I have to say, that the R&D Team has all these proof-of-concept ideas and we just recently brought an idea that we have worked on for a while to Iain and Hal and it was denied, we tried and we all moved on. But they will consider it further and look into why we cannot bring a specific feature to the outpost.
Just remember, Iain and Hal were entrusted with the Outpost's continued future from Andrew Maxwell and if he didn't think they could do it, then they would just pull the plug then and there.
Yes, I agree with having a trial period, in a beta setting that perhaps doesn't effect all users, but we want everyone to try it and give feedback (real-time chat). I support the change, I support hearing what people have to say, and I support having the option for our membership to turn it on "or" off.
Kaela, trying something new doesn't hurt everyone, so why would it hurt you to come in to the chatroom and just try it instead of justifying yourself in the forum?
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kaela_donos
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 05:14 · Edited by: kaela_donos
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i said.. it made me sea sick! <-- i can only see a few posts and it goes to fast, ( i can't not wont, can't come back till it doesn't do that, i cant use some settings of trillain for the same reason [why do you think i am here commenting not in there playing]) but this is REALLY besides the point.
I am not arguing for or ageist this new system just the way it was put out there. (the way changes are being made) i wish i had made this clear to start with.  i thought i did
These changes in methods could have fixed this before it was an issue, and just like if you see one ant you know there are more, there is never just one person with the problem.
and you would have a full scale and still open for editing after bata of cores you would, but first things first. You crawl before you walk. I am not suggesting that large full scale would never take place i am just saying that it take place AFTER bata and other trials.
Lrz i am not arguing ageist you or your hard work, the R&D was about public notice, just as experiences has taught many of us, over saturation of knowledge and up coming events is the best way. Transparency is key
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 06:40
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I would like to say that with the adjustments (mainly the pause when I'm typing or scrolling down, hitting Receive to go back to the top, and the instant clear after posting), that I'm warming up to this.
Yes, it was sudden, and yes, I think I prefer the old system, but with it's better with these improvements.
Question: is the armory going to be fixed? If one gets removed from the room, the only way they can notice is that their posts aren't being posted.
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mezoti
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 09:20
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The armory is on a list of to-be-fixed things. Along with half a dozen other improvements. For the time being I recommend that no one play shoot anyone out as they just won't notice.
As for having an beta.. This IS the beta. Iain has said time and again that this is the alpha/beta and it is a work in progress. Wouldn't you rather your arguments be heard (like the pause thing which I recommended to Iain but he thought not enough people would want but they did so he put it in.) and things changed over time than given a something and told 'that's it, no more upgrades?'
OTF does not have enough people for separate chatrooms - hence the chat consolidation that Ohm did a few years ago. Having a beta in one room would not work - it would again split the focus of people and you'd have 2/3 in one room and 2/3 in another and people would again get frustrated with the lack of people, new people would think it's dead, etc.
Frankly, I'm warming up more and more to the auto-refresh chat. And I enjoy it more. I'm actually happy to chat now. I could never figure out why I hated chatting.. and now I know. I hated having to click a button to get new posts.
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david1
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 10:59
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If you wish to use the old system of click recieve and your cl is high enough use the office, allthough there is a level 6 force field in there atm?!?
My only view is i tried otf chat on a netbook, with a 800x 600 resolution, and it looked poor. very poor, you could only see the top 3 posts -_- HAHA.
I still think switching the type of post in the chatroom based of screen reolution would be a good idea.
re: width > 800 height>600 ... keeps it normal
if less then both
Shwos Rank: Username: Message
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ajcardall
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 15:29
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How about even simpler than that, and giving people and option to same "Basic" or "Extended" view? Extended being the view as it is and basic being a truncated, smaller view (no avatar, for example).
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kaela_donos
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 17:18 · Edited by: kaela_donos
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This is about people managing as much, even more then software managing, so it is a fair criticism.
As far as my idea, it is just one of many ideas. You could do it many other ways too, but what I am talking about would not be forever separate room! And You would be CLEAR on it before you start! you could write BATA on the "door" of the testing room! I would hope we are not THAT stupid that we couldn't get that! People would try it out, and you could even link it to the main room, so they go into the main room while the interface is the Bata while still having the old system working. This way would solve your problem, not completely disrupt things, Or it could be complexly independent like I had first suggested and have more control on it, but be clear it is an independent room (we got it for nearly a decade, I would think we arnt stupid enough not to get it now) that would still give you the greatest control and lest amount of people problems.
And i don't see why this is an either or, i don't see why you couldn't follow a bata with an editable full scale test, because you don't aways get the bugs out, you get 90% of them out and look for the other 10%. you don't take a baby and wonder why it can't run a Marathon! it is best if you get as much as you can in place before you take it to full scale! you do A, then B then C, we all want to go right to C, but if you put in B things go smoother!
Because there wasn't an independent bata (or a simi independent bata) it means i can't use it right now. So you have excluded me, and (like ants were you only see one but there are many more) most likely lots of other . And you may have lost newbies. Is't that something we should go out of our way to prevent!
(just because i am suggesting improvements to how you go about it doesn't mean i am saying they are not trying, or doing a bad job, and i know there listening to people. i am saying this, this could help a lot, make hard work better. let people who dont want to be ginie pigs, not be ginie pigs, and letpeople who want to spend hours playing and find the new system cool, play and help out with out the fuss)
I honestly don't get it, why this is as out of the box here as it is, maybe i have not been clear enough or something, or to aggressive or to confusing.
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and on a im tired of writing, should make this a new post but no.
the shutter thing, how it appears is what is making me sea sick. Boats no, two things moving at once quickly on a screen, yes... I am sure not the only person with this problem either. (at lest in this case, i really hope i am not but other people mentioned they were having the same kind of problems)
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ajcardall
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 17:42
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" you may have lost newbies by failing to do so"
I think we lost a LOT more newbies using an outdated, decrepit, antiquated and clumsy system 
From chatting to people and observing reactions in the rooms, more and more people are warming to this new system. It is bring old members back (if only briefly - but it's a start!) and they are commenting on the better system. Perhaps this is only a temporary spike in chat numbers and people dropping in, and yes, maybe they will fall away again... but they ARE coming in now and they ARE chatting. What we need to do is to make sure people keep returning, dropping by, saying hello.
When the steam industry moved forward and modernised a lot of people were unhappy, but it had to be done. They didn't petition workforces or run beta tests - they knew what had to be done and did it, and people got used to it and times moved forward. We have leaders for a reason: to lead and to decide. If changes are a success they be praised; if they fail, then they are to blame - that's part and parcel of the job.
Would a beta test for this have been useful? Perhaps. Would it have been as successful as testing it 'live'? Probably not. This way everyone has come by to see the change, and there's no escaping it. Some like it, some don't, some are on the fence. But this way they can't just check once, write it off, and go back to click-receive chat. A lot of people disliked it at first but are now warming to it after getting used to it. Personally, to me, that makes this a much more efficient method of testing. Naturally some will disagree, and that is entirely fine: that's the beauty of freedom of choice - we're allowed to make our own judgements. Doesn't mean one person is wrong and one person is right.
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kaela_donos
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 17:55 · Edited by: kaela_donos
Reply
Aside from the sea sick issue I think it has allot of hope! and is going to be great After the bugs! NEw systems are good and fine and it is GREAT that your updating! not my issues! NEVER WAS, never said it was!
it is how you DEVELOP and put in PLACE the new system! I am saying there is a better way. not every one likes to be a ginnie pig, and having a choice to opt out would have been better in many ways, and would have been better for the ones developing it too.
quick recap,
Mez/Iain/hal, whomever: I don't think your doing a bad job! I was talking about, trying to explain a way that could solve problems that you might not have thought about .
AJ: this is based on studding and project experience not on what I pulled out of my... this is more then a "personal" option.
I know shouldn't have posted this, I should have walked away two days ago, I am just not good at walking away.
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ayanna
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 18:57
Reply
Indeed
i must say i'm surpised to see such distain for something that some aren't even given a chance. If you give the chat more then a 5 minute change it might just grow on you. I know it has on me. I was very against the change in the beginning even voiced my opinion against it to a few on msn, but the more time i'm in chat the more i grow used to it and begin to like it.
Sure it has it's bugs, but sometimes testing it separately isn't always the best route. I've seen more old members return in the past day and half then new members, and some of them have loved it, they were at first against it but it has started to grow on them and you see them in chat more often. There has also been more feedback to Iain then he could of ever got if he had just simply did a seperate beta chat room for it. Like so many have said not everyone can be pleased. Some are going to hate it, some are going to love it and some are going to grow to accept it. It just a matter of being patient and waiting for all the bugs to be worked out, and for all the changes to be complete. I think it's great so far.
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kaela_donos
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 19:10 · Edited by: kaela_donos
Reply
I GET SEA SICK! I GET SEA SICK! I GET SEA SICK! I GET SEA SICK! maybe now you can see it! you can stand right next to me while i upchuck on you if you want me to prove it? i CANT use it right now! it is because it does mult shutter scrolling unlike other systems so i try it out for very long! i wrote that on top of the PAGE!
Never said that i hated it, minor problem with it, and a dislike of those problems isn't distain. I am talking about the methoids, not about the change it self.
I already talked about people comming back in a previous post,
You say I don't try the improvemnt, and yet your saying my method isn't worth even trying?
i am sorry i said anything. i dug my own grave, now i am getting, villinised and i feel obligated to defend myself, i should have just not bothered showing up again.
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 19:50
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Brandilynn, I don't want these things fixed gradually. I want them fixed NOW!!! 
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kaela_donos
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 20:20 · Edited by: kaela_donos
Reply
if you guys want i can just delete what i wrote,. I really was honestly trying to help and i don't get why i am not able to express this properly, but if am hurting i can delete and leave for a while.
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daecrist
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 21:45
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Kaela, the problem is still the same as when we discussed this in e-mail.
If someone wants to get a project off the ground and help out then we welcome that. But first they have to give us a clear idea of what it is they propose to do along with a plan that shows how they are going to do it. That's how Lzrman got R&D started. It's how AJ has moved ahead with Entertainment. It's how Ayanna has taken over responsibility for the gateway.
So far in e-mail and on the forums you've presented vague project management and leadership notions without presenting a clear plan. And honestly we're going to be a bit skeptical of any project management advice since we recently had to reassign simming due to a lack of activity there on your part.
The Outpost has always worked within a small team framework and it seems to be working well enough getting things done these days as well. And most of the people in leadership roles at OTF also have a couple of advanced degrees where subjects like project management and managing small teams was a focus, believe it or not.
You say that you would like us to improve our methods but so far I haven't seen any concrete proposals that outlines whatever new methodology you're talking about. We're more than happy to give your ideas a fair hearing, but I have to know what they are before we can do that. Preferably by e-mail and not on the forums.
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kaela_donos
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2010 22:45 · Edited by: kaela_donos
Reply
HAL, this isn't about our private correspondence
I am sorry that I haven't been able to do more with simming over the last few months, but life has been really hard for me between my father's, my friends deaths and an increasing course load. I sent out many emails and didn't get responses, with all that was happing it discouraged me. So I handed the reins off to a person I felt was a worthy replacement.
The point I was trying to get across earlier is that a beta test could have worked out any issues with the bar, receive/clear buttons timing, updates links, timeouts, exits, armory (level 2+), etc. before users were subjected to broken links and confusing exits. I hope that in the future, the idea of More Testing is given some more consideration. (I outlined my ideas more in earlier posts)
I won't argue any more on the subject, I have already posted to much. If anyone would like to discuss these ideas with me further, I am available privately.
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