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ice
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 00:50
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Ok the message included below are only the opinions of the author. They are not intended to offend anyone or single out individuals. Anyone who reads this and feels they have been personally targeted I would like to clearly state this is not the case.
History
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I have been a member since later 98. Although not a constantly active member I appear for periods throughout the years in an attempt to get involved and become a contributing member of the community. I have grown up around chatrooms and am open about my past discretion; so please don't use them as an attempt to target me for insults.
Back in the "good ole days" I wasn't specifically included in OTF. I was a member and showed up actively. Although never really part of the community at large I primarily annoyed someone ending most of my posts with ... which wasn't so much intentional as habit. However, I did make several friends in those days and speak to a few of them today not always meeting threw OTF but they were OTF members. Those I have met in real life realize for the most part my childish past is behind me. I've grown up, got married have my own kids, ran my own business all sorts of things.
I have a joking personality in general, this can sometimes be taken as offensive which couldn't be further from the truth. I met a few people in real life and although not a deep profound friendship its obvious from the start nothing it meant in a harmful manner more often its due to being uncomfortable.
Anyway to get on topic I was reading a post about V3 ideas started by AJ this was from back in 07 or 08. Alot of things mentioned back then although for the most part agreed with are still evident in OTF today.
Departments
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Departments don't exist anymore, which to me is a huge loss to the community. I spent years trying to get beyond the stigma of my past to be included in Engineering when I got there I was v.pleased with the accomplishment but found it next to impossible to get anything actually done. I couldn't contact department heads and when I finally could they couldn't get authorization on anything at all. This seems to be the reason departments have died out around OTF. Departments offer more than just a "do work, earn promotion". They generate a feel of belonging, they let people who have similar interests work together & communicate and generate friendships. Without this the chat is "just a chat". The pre-existing groups are set and its near impossible to break in and be welcomed.
There is the whole not having formal departments and people find groups and work together but again these are difficult to break into due to not being accepted as a new member quite so easily. I myself ended up completing an entire website/project by myself due to this feeling - also as a way to try to show the command there are people interested in reviving departments. After talking in the room I'm definitely not alone in this thought so im very unclear as to why it can't be done.
Again there is the age-old argument people don't have the time to monitor said things, that it requires to much involvement from the high command and they can't afford to do that. Doesn't that kind of come with the role?? If they don't have the time perhaps delegating to those out there that do have the time and inclination.
It was again suggested years ago that Department Heads make all the decisions for there department. Another was that there wasn't enough "fresh ideas" coming through and they were all remakes of old ideas... is that necessarily a bad thing? I look around OTF (and good search old projects) and most haven't been updated for 5 years. Giving these pages a revamp and better link structures & general upgrades would help improves OTF's seo and hopefully help introduce a new influx of members to the site.
Double-Standards
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This is not in relation to a topic some will be aware of but more on a generic note. Alot of the OTF rules are not followed on a daily basis. Rules 1,2,4,6,7 in specific. I was looking at the original rules of Outpost10F because I remembered a rule that wasn't on that list. It was that members were to address senior offices with Sir/Ma'am as a sign of respect for there work in the community. It made me laugh that this rule didn't exist anymore. Fair enough this rule seems very much outdated. But in that case rules 1,2,4,6 & 7 are constantly broken why do they exist?
These rules apply to a small number of people in OTF. Generally new people and those of lower ranks. Those who have been here longer, or have a higher rank are included in the group that are exempt. Who's breaking these rules is seen as playful & all in good fun. This is because the community "knows" these people, but its supposed to be that members of the command set an example for others to follow. By following the example currently set these people are sent into break rules and then removed for doing so.
The Future
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Today (or yesterday) marked the 15th anniversary of Outpost10F. It was great to see so many faces from the past despite the fact I remember most but appear to have been forgotten by them - as is life. I though to myself where will OTF been in 5years, 10years, 15years.
At present OTF see's very few "new" members, with the way things are by the time they reach CL3 they are looking for "how do i get to CL8" and there's no departments, so it goes of regular recommendations.. but they are still stuck with how to get past CL4 apart from a vic post there's not much other warnings.
People then get at them for "pestering" about promotions despite trying to gain information. As a group people assume people want promotions to get access to custom av, hidden ips, the session editor and all that junk. Which is rarely the case. It's because most of the conversation is people of higher ranks talking amongst themselves, to get a rank isn't symbolic of power its symbolic of inclusion.
The people that returned tonight show up maybe once every few years for an evening. They aren't otf's future they are its past. The current active members are likely to have moved on in 10years, so the future of the chat is in the hands of new members. Perhaps setting a better example and providing a more welcoming environment is the best thing for OTF.
To ensure it does live on to see its 20th, 25th, 30th anniversary.
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daecrist
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 01:16
Reply
Right. Wall'o text. *cracks knuckles*
Quoting: ice Ok the message included below are only the opinions of the author. They are not intended to offend anyone or single out individuals. Anyone who reads this and feels they have been personally targeted I would like to clearly state this is not the case.
So far so good. I'm going to be perfectly honest and blunt with you as well. Some people might not like that, but I'm not targeting anyone specifically. So now that we've established we're being honest with one another let's have a look at your ideas.
Quoting: ice I have a joking personality in general, this can sometimes be taken as offensive which couldn't be further from the truth. I met a few people in real life and although not a deep profound friendship its obvious from the start nothing it meant in a harmful manner more often its due to being uncomfortable.
If you're going to bring this up then I'm going to go ahead and address it head on. If the chatsaves that routinely appear in my inbox when you decide to come around are any indication then it isn't just an issue of a "joking personality" that's being misconstrued by people. If that was the case then I would have come down on anyone who made a shot because I'm firmly against abusing rank or armory access.
Quoting: ice I spent years trying to get beyond the stigma of my past to be included in Engineering when I got there I was v.pleased with the accomplishment but found it next to impossible to get anything actually done. I couldn't contact department heads and when I finally could they couldn't get authorization on anything at all. This seems to be the reason departments have died out around OTF.
Departments were dead when they were disbanded. We were just acknowledging a death that had happened about a year prior. At issue was exactly what you pointed out. We'd have people who were interested in doing department work but ultimately they didn't have a clear mission and/or they quickly lost interest in what they were doing.
Engineering is a good illustration. They did some work with building websites and tinkered around with teaching people HTML, but by the time I became QC there wasn't anything going on in the department. No one was being actively recruited and no projects were underway because of a combination of lack of interest from the people running the department, lack of clear mission, and lack of new people to contribute.
We had the same problem in other departments. One motivated person would show up and dedicate the equivalent work of a part time job getting it running. Then once it was running again they would inevitably get burnt out and hand off the work to someone else who worked with them. Then under that new management things would inevitably start to trail off because the person with the high level of interest and dedication wasn't there to keep things running singlehandedly. This cycle repeated several times with several departments, Guilds being the most obvious example.
Quoting: ice After talking in the room I'm definitely not alone in this thought so im very unclear as to why it can't be done.
People are always interested in reviving the departments when you're talking about it in the chat rooms in the abstract. People get a lot less interested in reviving the departments when it comes time to put action behind the chat convos.
Quoting: ice After talking in the room I'm definitely not alone in this thought so im very unclear as to why it can't be done.
See above about people losing interest. This has been an ongoing issue for the past seven years or so. And there's nothing wrong with that. Our population is getting older and we all have other responsibilities. It's not like the old days when the chat was primarily frequented by young geeky types with a lot of free time.
Quoting: ice Again there is the age-old argument people don't have the time to monitor said things, that it requires to much involvement from the high command and they can't afford to do that. Doesn't that kind of come with the role?? If they don't have the time perhaps delegating to those out there that do have the time and inclination.
This is a delicate balancing act. In the past we've constantly had to battle a problem where we were getting too top heavy with management types. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Iain and I, for example, still dedicate a chunk of time to OTF. Most of our stuff is, as I like to say, more on the lines of dealing with real world stuff rather than pretending we're on an Internet starship.
I've delegated chat responsibilities to other people in the past but it usually winds up with that person either not having enough time to work on the project they've come up with or working themselves to the point that they get burnt out and disillusioned. Neither one is a good solution and I've tried to come up with ways to solve it, but those two endings are how it's played out for the most part.
Quoting: ice It was again suggested years ago that Department Heads make all the decisions for there department. Another was that there wasn't enough "fresh ideas" coming through and they were all remakes of old ideas... is that necessarily a bad thing? I look around OTF (and good search old projects) and most haven't been updated for 5 years. Giving these pages a revamp and better link structures & general upgrades would help improves OTF's seo and hopefully help introduce a new influx of members to the site.
If we're talking about SEO then we're already doing pretty well. We're still near the top when it comes to people talking about Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings chat rooms. The real problem is that people don't go to chat rooms like they used to.
The kids that were the lifeblood of this site ten to fifteen years ago are all on social networks these days. If we wanted to get people in then we'd have to think about doing an overhaul of the system that changed OTF from a chat room to something different that incorporated more of those bells and whistles. It would be nice if we could tinker with those things but there's no one with the coding ability and the time that I trust to tinker with OTF systems right now so that we can mess with that sort of thing.
Quoting: ice These rules apply to a small number of people in OTF. Generally new people and those of lower ranks. Those who have been here longer, or have a higher rank are included in the group that are exempt. Who's breaking these rules is seen as playful & all in good fun. This is because the community "knows" these people, but its supposed to be that members of the command set an example for others to follow. By following the example currently set these people are sent into break rules and then removed for doing so.
If you see a senior officer abusing their rank and privilege then take a chatsave. It goes straight to my inbox and I look at all of them as they come in. I can assure you that if I see someone abusing their privilege then they will be dealt with. And they have been dealt with in the past. You just don't hear about it because that sort of thing is kept private between myself and whoever is getting talked to.
You'll notice the new policy regarding armory abuse. I've had to have a talk with people about that as it continues to be a problem and I'm serious about enforcing it. I can't be in the chat room all the time, especially since starting a job that frowns on me sitting in the spycam all day long, so I'm relying on the community and their chatsaves to be eyes and ears when it comes to this sort of abuse.
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ice
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 01:32
Reply
Hal thankyou for the time to respond. I would love to see the chatsaves regarding myself that have been e-mailed to you. More so I would like to see them in full context as opposed to an individual post type thing. Since the "following example set in the chat" is kind of linked.
However, the points you have responded to are the least important. My main concern is about the inclusion of new members as opposed to there separation. You mention about sending you chat saves but I could login at any point in the day save the html and send it to you, its not a "occasional" thing. Those rules are broken on a daily basis in excess. I could probably only name a handful of people who appear regularly that do follow those rules, and that would be at a push.
Departments may start & fail and I appreciate they take alot to start and then that motivation can dry up if theirs not enough support but they initially worked years back and I can't see how people (the userbase) getting older stops this entirely maybe they wouldn't be as productive but they were included for a reason into OTF. Cutting them out entirely is taking a huge social aspect of the rooms. There is no harm in departments sat doing nothing, something "may" come from it, it may not. If they aren't there at all, nothing can ever come from them. But like I said, its more about the social aspect of being included in said department, team etc.
Again you stated about people nowadays using facebook, twitter, other social platforms which I'm not going to dispute this is a factor. Regularly in recent time Cameron has been here, he is 13. He cant be the only 13year old in the world who would find this environment appealing. The issue seems to be more that the message isn't reaching the target audience. Which in itself is fairly understanding when that aspect of the site runs on auto-pilot.
To clarify I accept the point you have made as being understandable, but it also seems to portray somewhat of a defeatist attitude towards things that once thrived in otf.
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rpmobsession
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 07:06
Reply
I stopped reading the forums years and years ago for this exact thread. I have no real opinion and nothing beneficial to add, but I just must say. With all due respect (since we are being so proper), it always makes me laugh and roll my eyes when people who haven't been around in over a year or more....(Since your last return?) spend a week here and suddenly have all the answers to our problems and want resolution and a revived gusto. As someone who has been here as one of the few die hard active members for the last....10 years, I implore you to stick around for longer than a week before you start questioning the system. It's not a bad thing. The chatroom world has simply evolved, much like Andrew was saying. Even the "old timers" that are still active are interested in new things. New ways of chatting. And, it's just different. Maybe departments aren't actually needed....and if you want to see things happening and crap going on....start it? Get it going. Why do you need an email approval? For most things, it just takes starting the conversation in chat. If it requires more formality than that, honestly....it just doesn't get received well on a regular basis. I think anyone that's tried to revive Trivia in the last....oh...what...4-6 years now can tell you that one. But, there are ways people accomplish exactly what your questioning....how to get involved and feel needed and liked. If you visit the Trivia section of the forums, there's been a highly active and successful forum trivia revival led by Naberrie/Deus (A new member). Not because there's anything in it, but simply because one day trivia got started and people had interest to participate. You can't come in and point fingers at management or the people here and blame a completely non-existent ranking system when you haven't been around to also see the activity of participation. And, as far as the feeling left out/superior double standard. Does it happen? Yeah. We are a bunch of diverse friends with vastly different personal relations with one another who have been friends for over 5+ years for a lot of people. Can we get cliquey? Hell yeah, we can. But, seriously, if the attempt is made it will be rewarded. It's all a matter of warming up to one another and feeling out our own lines and relationships.
Could OTF be doing more? Sure. But, ya know what? I think we're chugging along pretty splendidly for being a 15 year old website.
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rpmobsession
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 07:08
Reply
*Naberrie And Deus (A New Member)....There is not a new member who is the conjoined efforts of both Naberrie and Deus. 
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ice
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 07:49
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RPM my initial post wasn't intended to be an "I have all the answers" although I can see it comes across that way, I read an article from 5years ago with someone who expressed the same views I've had for about the past 5years or so. My reason for not being die-hard are those mentions above, after a few weeks of trying to be included to no avail it becomes pointless to attend, so I stop coming in. I return a year later hoping things will have finally changed and again after a few weeks I leave due to the same issue.
I'm not suggesting OTF has failed or isn't good enough on every level. I was questioning some basic decisions in regard departments nothing saying "it must be done" and like I said its not about doing the work so much as the "social circles" it includes people in, gives an additional chat topic etc. As for taking on projects myself I have done (its with the ec atm for approval/publishing).
I would also like to point out 1 tiny thing, its the people that have issues that will share there views of the problems, people who have no issues with how a community has evolved are less likely to challenge the norms as it works for them.
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kitty_gg
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 08:14
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It's the "Clique" thing I find that shines right through. The one rule for one, one rule for another. OTF wasn't my first chat, but I can remember even before I came here that people would say not to come here because you wont be included as the "Clique" is strong. To have any new members first of all you must make them feel wanted. Cameron is a clear example, I've seen people jump at him for asking simple questions. He could be answered fairly so he understands, or be given a good pat on the back and told to hang in there. When I first started at chats I was 17 and due to life circumstances my only form of being around people my own age was through a chat really, I found myself in a really good group who were open in including others so why can't OTF members of higher rank do the same?
Example being the other day when a situation arose that "Someone" was to sit, not get involved because *they didn't really know the person*, and here I thought chat rooms were to chat and get involved?
Fair enough OTF is Old, people have been around here speaking to certain others and as in life welcoming someone new and speaking with them can take time, but years back a bit of good banter made that process quicker, do some banter in here and you are likely to get shot for being annoying.
Not that it's all bad, honestly some people are quicker to talk to you than others. I enjoy many people's company in chat when I am there. However if OTF wants to make the new members stick around maybe we should all be a bit more welcoming?
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david1
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 09:41
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You get out of the site what you put in. If you expect to be spoon fed, you'll soon find that sweet nectar in short supply!
I think a lot of valid points have been brought up here, but having been part of "temporary" revivals in the past, i can assure you its a very hard "uphill struggle", as a result ive become sum-what of a pariah in the eyes of some for what I did, because indeed any big work is a hard job, and it does indeed lead to people burning out, which happened in my own case,.. spectacularly, because i was frustrated at the speed at which decisions where made.
If you feel somthing is not being done right, stand up, and be heard, if that fails, do somthing about it. Like HAL said, if you feel rules are being broken, abuse hit inbox with the chat save option.
Quoting: rpmobsession Could OTF be doing more? Sure. But, ya know what? I think we're chugging along pretty splendidly for being a 15 year old website.
OMG We're about to become and "adult site" at the Age of 16 next year. scary.
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ajcardall
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 15:24
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Hey,
I've tried, two or three times, to get things moving, as a lot of people will know. I spent a lot of my own time thinking of things, trying to get things moving, getting people interested. The trouble is, when it comes down to it, a lot of people said they would, and then didn't. I did my part (and without being immodest, I like to think did it well) but the initial enthusiasm just died away when it came to the crunch, and most people just wanted to sit back and chat. That's not a bad thing at all, and it's where we're at right now.
The biggest problem is people are either too busy, or get scared by the amount of work that is actually needed. Most would rather just chat with friends and have a laugh rather than pouring hours of work into it. That's not a critique, it's not even a bad thing - at least by chatting we're maintaining activity! 
Now, again at the risk of being immodest, I get the feeling I have a knack of kicking up an initial enthusiasm for things and getting interest piqued. But I can't do it by myself. Could I be tempted to try one last time? Probably, but I'd need help.
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tycho
Moderator
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 15:29
Reply
You have my hat good Sir (as usual).
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deboe
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 15:29
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If he usually has your hat, I think it's his hat by now. *nods*
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tycho
Moderator
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 15:32
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Damn you, go find that LOTR reference there I always back up my AJ homie Unless there are Hobbits involved.
But back to business, I currently have more spare time again, so yeah, how hard can it be? *in a Clarkson voice*
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deboe
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 15:35
Reply
I'm always willing to help out as much as I'm able.
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ajcardall
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 16:24
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Well, I'd like to know what people think. If a good number want to try it out, I'll help (if asked!)
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ice
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 16:42
Reply
For the record (if it wasn't obvious) i want to and had an idea already on a possible method with resources readily available to cut on the usual redtape (msg me for further info).
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generalmax
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 19:08
Reply
I am happy to help.
Regards,
Max
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kitty_gg
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 19:26
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I'd be happy to help in whatever way I could but I am far from someone who can make any type of website. Tell me what Avvies to make, or what information to get I can do that but I am never usually of much use lol 
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david1
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 20:03
Reply
I'm always happy to help my AJ, and more then capable of doing anything from a web/coding perspective.
Ill just be honest though that I get very OCD with coding! And we know what happened last time.
And like ice I have a multitude of resources at my disposal
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ice
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 20:05
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Do we have any graphics gods cos otherwise i forsee lots of graphicless pages 
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deboe
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 20:11 · Edited by: deboe
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I'm knowledgable with graphics...but Michiel is better and more creative than me.
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 20:55
Reply
Is there something I could do for a little time, as I have a little girl on the way?
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quincyw
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2012 22:26
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I think we're all talking about different issues here. First off, we're in what, 10F v3.0 in 2012? We're still talking about TF/CCC v1.0 of the late 90s. And yes, I'm talking a time before we properly unified.
My inputs into this discussion, I feel, has been to try and stimulate interest, not just in trying to get back on the bandwagon, but in fact to see if we can't change our fundamental way of doing business.
Fifteen years ago, the whole world was different, just as it was different one year ago. Our "glory days" of that time are past, it's time to move on.
We're still talking about Departments and values of fifteen years ago. I'm not saying that's not a bad path to take, but we're at 10F v3.0 now.
So I'm going to reverse my old position (most of you know it) and just say live and let live. There's a cadre of people still willing to give it a shot (scroll up). If you just want to show up and chat, sure.
Even now, there's only a small handful of people willing to take a crack at it. We also know who they are and I salute that. I genuinely do.
I've been working retail now for six years and I've grown up a lot in that time and I've had a lot of time to think things through. I've built my own store from the ground up (mild exagerration, I went into a dusty store front in a new centre) and kept it running for three years until the parent company said we weren't doing much good and decided to shut us down. In that time, I've learned how to work hard, work smart and what it takes to command a team and make hard decisions. But overall, nothing is done without imagination and challenge, either my own or challenging my staff to do more.
To add to what Hal has said, I've been there, done that. I was Simming Team Leader. I acknowledge at this point, DeBoe who deserves a very belated round of applause for being much of the driving force in that era, with a few others. I rebuilt the team, I rebuilt assignments, I tried to do everything I could. But there was one staff member I had, who frequented another chat I went to at that point. In 10F, said staff member said he didn't even have time to enter the chat and participate, which is not true because of how much time he spent at the other chat.
Which this is an extreme example, some people wanted to lead, to show up to (metaphorically) fight, have a go, while others tried, but couldn't, because of time, morale or had enough.
So, Ice, more power to you, sir. I remember you from back then, too. I am of the same vintage, of the same memories. I remember you for... You. A lot of the people who (in-) frequent this chat remembers me, remembers me for back then too. I have tried to make amends for my past and even when someone doesn't even remember it, I've tried to make amends anyway.
Off topic. Ice, ín this world, as you probably know, you have to take a swing at it. So take a swing at it. You want something done about it, you figure it out. There really isn't much stopping you from having a go. Seriously.
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