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babel
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2002 02:52
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'Who fulfilled the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force?'
Discuss. 
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michiel
Moderator
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2002 05:39
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Ya, I wondered about that yesterday. There's probably an easy answer or something, but wasn't the force at balance at the time Qui-Gon discovered Anakin? If so, how would Anakin bring balance to the force? ...Not saying he did, or eventually would, mind you, just nitpicking Ep. 1 *l*
Michiel
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crazytexan
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2002 07:59
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ahh...good topic Babel.
It is the offspring of Anakin that brings about the Balance. It took Anakin's son, Luke, trained in the ways of the Force by his previous Masters to find the good in him. The Original Trilogy seems to flow better and the prequels actually make some sense when you put them together and think about them.
The Emperor and Darth Vader order the Jedi Purge in which the overconfident, arrogant, and holier-than-thou Jedi Order is eliminated. In AotC, Yoda and Mace are coming to the realization that all is not well in the Galaxy and for the Jedi Order. They know a change is in the winds, yet can't see it just yet. So the elimination of all but a few Jedi bring the sheer numbers closer to a balance, but Lucas goes more for a symbolic balance. Prophecies are rarely taken literally, as they are more symbolic in nature. Lucas takes his symbolism and themes from various religions, including Judeo-Christian, and Buddhism, which incorporate undertones of the following motifs,
Good vs. Evil, Mentoring (Master/Student & Father/Son) Failure and Redemption, Faith and Beliefs (The Force)
And there are others...but my notebook from college English Lit is packed away somewhere and I don't want to go looking for it. 
*L* Yes, my college English Literature class analyzed various movies and books, including Star Trek, Star Wars, LotR, and even Disney's "The Lion King". Loads of symbolism there.  My professor was quite the sci-fi and fantasy fanatic. Even ascertained that lightsaber colors represent different motifs as well. Red of course is evil, blue was innocence, and green was tranquility/peace if I remember correctly.
Dunno about Mace's purple saber. That must mean you're a bad mutha with a lightsaber and knows how to use it.
The Jedi Council in EPI looked at the prophecy in literal terms and assumed the boy (Anakin) was the One. In a way he is, Anakin eliminates the Jedi with help from Palpatine's New Order, and decends deeper into the Dark Side. By the numbers the Jedi vs. Sith is almost balanced.
A New Hope represents Luke. Of course we learn about his twin sister later. Ewww...thats your sis you're kissing dude. It is Luke that brings Vader back from the depths of the Dark Side and Anakin not only sacrifices himself to save his son, but also eliminates Palpatine, and redeems himself. In ROTJ you can see Vader wrestling with himself as to his own choices and the destiny he has taken. He is good deep down, but the events of his life, along with Palpatine's manipulation casued Anakin to embrace the Dark Side. Also could have been the only way he could keep himself alive is with Dark Side powers. I'm sure EPIII will provide closure to the prequels and tie in the original trilogy.
At the end of ROTJ the two Sith Lords have been destroyed, and the evil in the Galaxy has been replaced with hope and renewal. Odd that that Balance had to be started by wiping the slate clean, but as I said, the prophecy is symbolic.
Okay peeps...chew on that for a bit. 
CT
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teekay
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2002 09:48
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Wow....  I could have used that a year ago when I taught a SF lit class...
Any chance you can dig out the notes from that English Lit class and send them to me?
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crazytexan
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2002 10:07
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*l*  Will do Teek. I'll look for them tonight and get them to you ASAP. Mostly meaningless scribble and my mad ramblings as notes, but I'll see what I can find for you.
CT
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michiel
Moderator
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2002 10:51
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That just sucks, Ceet, you've given us an answer that will either leaves you not wanting to read all that or be dumbfounded cause it's so plausible. You've single handedly killed the thread, how could we discuss any further? How could you, Ceet, how could you?
Michiel
PS - But what about the children? Who will think of the children?
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crazytexan
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2002 11:37
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*bows* heh...Sorry to burst your bubble Peev.
The children? ooo...thats another post.
CT
Forum Thread Killer
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wraith
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2002 14:39
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just a comment...but after reading several of the newer novels it seems there is no light and dark side....just the means and heart of the one who wields it....so there can't be a balance can there? sides who are we to say what balnced it...can YOU use the force? sorry jsut my random ramblings and presenting more replies to be discused about*l*
Wraith
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tierce
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2002 21:39
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I always speculated that the balance was in two Dark Jedi and two Light jedi. Palpatine/vader - Yoda/Obi-wan, That was left after the purge.
Its also interesting to note that the force itself in nature is neutral. It is neither good or evil. Whether the force exists or not is irrelevant to my post, in some cultures and philosophies it is and in other its not.
Food for thought? I think so, its our actions alone that dictate whether we let good or evil rule our lives. The force is like a any weapon, a firearm for example, in itself its not really so alarming, a piece of metal roughly, but its the actions taken by those who use it that makes the difference.
So do you get a kick out of being manipulative and "evil" or compassionate and helping those around you?
~T
True to the Lightside
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babel
Member
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2002 03:25
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Well, I think Anakin did fulfill the prophecy, with Luke being the catalyst for him to do so. It was Anakin who chucked Palpatine to his doom, not Luke, though Luke made it possible for Anakin to destroy the Emperor.
SW is really Anakin's and Luke's story, isn't it? Everyone else is just a supporting character. The first half is about the fall of Anakin, and the second half is about his redemption. Maybe Luke himself is a supporting character.
I'm not buying for one moment this stuff about Palpatine coming back in the books. For me, Luke passed his big teston the second Death Star. 'I am a Jedi, like my father before me!' It was cheap and wrong to have him face the Emperor again and to turn to the Dark Side (however noble his intentions were.) It also robbed the films of their dramatic power; oh, sorry, Anakin's redemption and Luke's refusal to turn meant nothing, as I'm a writer who knows better than Lucas. *l*
Riight.
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crazytexan
Member
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2002 06:42
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Very good insight Babel. Star Wars is the story of the Skywalker family, and true that the other characters are supporting...find it interesting that R2D2 and C3P0 are the ones to bridge the gap between each episode, as if the story is through their optical sensors (eyes) and point of view.
"I'm not buying for one moment this stuff about Palpatine coming back in the books. For me, Luke passed his big test on the second Death Star."
Yes. yes, a thousand times yes. The liberties that have been taken in the Expanded Universe on Lucas' original vision has taken the story down some really strange roads over the years. Some are good (Thrawn Trilogy, Young Han Solo Trilogy, Tales from series...) while others are just plain stinkers in my opinion (Crystal Star, Dark Empire comic series, The New Jedi Order series) Bringing back Imperial superweapons and nasty villans only add to the cheese factor of the franchise.
But...that is for another entire forum thread. SW Expanded Universe. Same goes for Star Trek as well I suppose.
CT
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michiel
Moderator
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2002 06:46
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Another forum thread? So you can kill that too? *whines* Murder!
Michiel
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wraith
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2002 15:00
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<!--QuoteBegin--babel+Dec. 12 2002,03:25--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (babel @ Dec. 12 2002,03:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, I think Anakin did fulfill the prophecy, with Luke being the catalyst for him to do so. It was Anakin who chucked Palpatine to his doom, not Luke, though Luke made it possible for Anakin to destroy the Emperor. <br><br>SW is really Anakin's and Luke's story, isn't it? Everyone else is just a supporting character. The first half is about the fall of Anakin, and the second half is about his redemption. Maybe Luke himself is a supporting character. <br><br>I'm not buying for one moment this stuff about Palpatine coming back in the books. For me, Luke passed his big teston the second Death Star. 'I am a Jedi, like my father before me!' It was cheap and wrong to have him face the Emperor again and to turn to the Dark Side (however noble his intentions were.) It also robbed the films of their dramatic power; oh, sorry, Anakin's redemption and Luke's refusal to turn meant nothing, as I'm a writer who knows better than Lucas. *l* <br><br>Riight.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>humm cna never remember which book that was....when luke went to the darkside? some help please! *l*<br><br>Wraith
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skull_leader
Member
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# Posted: 15 Dec 2002 16:41
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<!--QuoteBegin--wraith+Dec. 15 2002,15:00--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (wraith @ Dec. 15 2002,15:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--babel+Dec. 12 2002,03:25--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (babel @ Dec. 12 2002,03:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, I think Anakin did fulfill the prophecy, with Luke being the catalyst for him to do so. It was Anakin who chucked Palpatine to his doom, not Luke, though Luke made it possible for Anakin to destroy the Emperor. <br><br>SW is really Anakin's and Luke's story, isn't it? Everyone else is just a supporting character. The first half is about the fall of Anakin, and the second half is about his redemption. Maybe Luke himself is a supporting character. <br><br>I'm not buying for one moment this stuff about Palpatine coming back in the books. For me, Luke passed his big teston the second Death Star. 'I am a Jedi, like my father before me!' It was cheap and wrong to have him face the Emperor again and to turn to the Dark Side (however noble his intentions were.) It also robbed the films of their dramatic power; oh, sorry, Anakin's redemption and Luke's refusal to turn meant nothing, as I'm a writer who knows better than Lucas. *l* <br><br>Riight.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>humm cna never remember which book that was....when luke went to the darkside? some help please! *l*<br><br>Wraith<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>Dark Horse Comics published a graphic novel series called "Dark Jedi", where Luke fell under the sway of a clone of Palpatine. It took place soon after Tim Zahn's "Thrawn" trilogy ended. They have been collected into a single paperbound volume.<br><br>If your local bookstore or comic dealer doesn't carry it, they or you can order it.
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wraith
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2002 11:09
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ooooh*l* the comic bookish ones...so thats why I don't have it...cause liek I coulda sworn I owned everyu singel novel in print...well sept the oens i'm waiting to come out in paperback..thanks!
Wraith
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wraith
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2002 11:10
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oooh and sorry bout my spelling*l* I tend to be rushed when I reply and therefore don't have time to spell check and such 
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rock
Member
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# Posted: 17 Dec 2002 16:50
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I agree with Babel on the subject of writers. The new SW novel writers take too many liberties and I think the whole SW book series has turned into a series of one-upsmanship among the writers. Who can do the most outrageous thing to the characters, who can get them in the worst scinerio possible and then pull them back. Also, just totally destroying the essence of the origional trilogy. Luke turning to the dark side, Chewy dying, evil force impervious invaders from a distant galaxy... Its all a load of crap, and the single reason I refuse to read any new SW books.
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monny
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2002 00:33
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Indeed a interesting topic Babel!
I think to be balanced the Force must be symetrical.
So that being said we now have the argument of what kind of eqation to create. It is agreed that the Force is energy and as we all know
E= mc^2
Energy = mass(speed of light)(speed of light)
So the Force is a function of mass. The Force is a function of light.
So in order to have the light side of the Force = the dark side we must reason this.
It is then logical to believe that the Dark side is heavier than the light side. This base on the theory that the speed of light is not the same value here as it is in a galaxy far far away.
I do believe that in the said galaxy c is a quatitative value and hence Energy would be produced if the c vector value is less, as is the case for the so called dark side. And thus it would be logical to deduce that the Dark side would have a particular mass advantage over the other if at all balance is possible.
Again this relies solely on the theory that balance is possible and thus the Force is symetrical in a 2 dimensional or dare I say 3 dimensional plane.
More research is definately required to retrieve the data to produce the final equation.
Monny
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babel
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2002 02:36
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*l* Splendid, Monny!
How about this: In order for balance to exist, there MUST be bad to weigh against the good; so when there are NO Sith the Force is out of balance. So Anakin becoming a Sith Lord is the act which creates balance!
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monny
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2002 07:24
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So in essence you are proposing that the solution to the equation is undefined before the existance of Anakin.
Well maybe not as they were sith prior to him
A series of equations revealed the imbalance?
And so it was deduce that one that was very heavy and had little on no light was needed to produce a solution of zero.
It was deduced that such and individual could only be produced by combining x # of so called midichlorians with a certain egg. And thus the creature was conceived.
How exciting!
Monny
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babel
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2002 07:29
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*reads and re-reads* and . . on, no, I've gone cross eyed!
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skull_leader
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2002 08:41
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<!--QuoteBegin--rock+Dec. 17 2002,16:50--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (rock @ Dec. 17 2002,16:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree with Babel on the subject of writers. The new SW novel writers take too many liberties and I think the whole SW book series has turned into a series of one-upsmanship among the writers. Who can do the most outrageous thing to the characters, who can get them in the worst scinerio possible and then pull them back. Also, just totally destroying the essence of the origional trilogy. Luke turning to the dark side, Chewy dying, evil force impervious invaders from a distant galaxy... Its all a load of crap, and the single reason I refuse to read any new SW books.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>Before you go accusing the writers of taking too many liberties, please bear in mind that Lucasfilm has total control over what gets released in the series, and has the right to rein these writers in if they so choose. George himself gave his blessing to the whole venture, and quite probably oversees many aspects of the series, or at the very least gets a detailed report of where things are going in the Expanded Universe.<br><br>Just adding my two cents' worth. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smi.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
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wraith
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2002 10:06
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*nods* thats true and while I do not like what some of the writers have done, as it would not be what I wanted it to do. I think for creating an entire new universe and connecting so many different authors for this that an excelent job has been done. Yes I have favorites, but that doesn't mean the other still aren't good...and oh anyways yesh there is no balance....so maybe we should take this to a new thread*l*...hmmm*does so*
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kali
Member
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# Posted: 21 Dec 2002 01:57
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one of the things that has come out of the NJO series is a different, altho not clearer, depending on your point of view, evaluation of the Force and the Light and Dark sides.
Since the Force does not "work" on the Vong int he traditinal sense, Luke has had to re-think things. And for those who have read "Traitor" and "Destiny's Way", onc can see that Vergere, the last old Jedi from the Old Republic, has a very different perspective on it. And she has taught that to Jacen Solo.
Now, Jacen has to take what he has learned back to Luke and see if they can find the "light" and get thru the rest of this war. According to the literary pundits, the whole thing is supposed to finish up some time in 2003, so we just have to wait and see who and what will win in the end.
Regardless, George Lucas is orchestrating this from behind the scenes and it wil end how and when HE wants it to.
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arwen25
Member
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# Posted: 25 Dec 2002 19:41
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*tries to shake off headace from too much math*
Whoa. After reading that I feel my views on the whole "bringing balance to the force" issue are rather simple minded. But I'm going to post them anyway.
In AOTC, Mace Windu mentions that the Jedi's power to use the force is diminishing and it seem to be implied that only Anakin can restore the proper balance in the Force and therefore restore the Jedi's powers to full use. The person creating the inbalance in the Force is Palpatine with some help from the overly arrogant Jedi Order. The Force was tipping, slidding may be a better word, toward the dark. Anakin helps destroy the corrupt and arrogant Jedi Order during the Jedi Purge and then destroys Palpatine bringing balance back to the force as it tips back toward the light.
That's what I think, although I may have to re-think it after reading this thread
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greatestofalljedi
Member
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# Posted: 28 Dec 2002 01:07
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i agree it was anikin that brings balance back to the universe
not luke though lukes suffering at the hands of palpitine had a major part in that.
i believe that you can have those who use the force in a good way and those who use it in a not so good way  perhaps misusing it but that does not make them a sith lord or apprentice . when dark sidios(spelling is not right) comes on the seen that changes the balance in the force thus anikin is needed to shift that balance back and he does in the end (fortunitly for us its quite a tale of how that happens)
that is why there has always been a constant struggle between the jedi and the sith lord
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wraith
Member
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2003 12:49
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how could anakin birng balance...the good jedi got wiped out remember! how balanced is that? they were loosing! then luke came along and they were fairly more balanced and the npalpitine died and anakin died/ converted so llke brought "unbalance" again....i still say theres no good and bad tis jsut the force and how you use it
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prettyleia
Member
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# Posted: 22 Jan 2003 07:47
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<!--QuoteBegin--babel+Dec. 12 2002,03:25--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (babel @ Dec. 12 2002,03:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->SW is really Anakin's and Luke's story, isn't it? Everyone else is just a supporting character.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>No, the story is told from R2-D2's point of view. R2-D2 is the only character in every movie in the entire trilogy to be in all the movies (so far!<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/win.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->. This is the droid's story.<br><br>As for balance in the force, if Yoda and Palpatine are balanced, and Obi-Wan and Vader are balanced, where does that leave Luke? Did luke become Vader's balance when Obi-Wan died?<br><br>One more thing: Getting rid of the Sith is not a good thing. Without evil, there can be no good. Think about it! <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/win.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
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jor
Member
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# Posted: 22 Jan 2003 08:24
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R2D2 is not the only character in all movies.
Anakin/Vader is in all movies. As is Palpatine (and C3PO).
As for the balance -- it isn't quite as simple as that. Especially in the prequel trilogy, there are a lot more Jedi (and Sith -- don't discount Tyrannus and Darth Maul).
But you have a point about Luke -- Luke did fall to the Dark Side a number of times (in the Expanded Universe), maybe because indeed he did not have a Sith to oppose him.
But really, Star Wars is about the Skywalker family -- first Anakin, and then his son, Luke.
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prettyleia
Member
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# Posted: 22 Jan 2003 08:33
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Okay, Anakin/Vader was in all of them (my mistake), and C-3PO was even though people found him annoying and he didn't have a big role in the prequels or any of the movies for that matter, but Palpatine was NOT in Ep. 4, therefore, he is not in all of the movies. He is mentioned, but he is not in it. I don't think he's in Ep. 5 either, I'll have to rewatch the movies. But I solidly stick to my notion that this is R2-D2's story, and nobody will change my mind.
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