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babel
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 09:20
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Without intending to make any comment/judgement on people mourning the Pope, I find it disturbing that religion should intrude upon OTF in this manner. OTF is a secular site, surely. I know I'm going to be jumped on for this but I can't condone it . . . . I and many other will not mourn the Pope and I'm a little annoyed frankly about the carte blanche feel to the update.
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jd
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 10:04
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Well, religion aside, a very good man who was loved by millions passed...that should count for something, I think.
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rpmobsession
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 11:01
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A very good man, religious based. I'm Baptist, and I don't really get the huff-puff about it. I assumed it was because I wasn't catholic, nor greatly affected by him. But, I agree with Babel, OTF has always kept pretty neutral in religious situations, and I don't see why this is any different.
-RPMObsession
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korny
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 11:46
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Just because you're Baptist, Gladys, isn't a plausible reason. My grandmother is Baptist and she felt strongly about the Pope's death. See, you don't need to be only Catholic to be sad.
And I say if y'all don't like the condition black, tough. Just ignore it for the little time it is up. There is no point in starting a big hullabaloo over such a sad event.
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rpmobsession
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 11:53
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Alexy: Aww..poo. Ok, I'll blame it on my youth AND my Baptist upbringing. I win? 
-RPMObsession
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wedge
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 12:00
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I'd never even thought about this site being secular untill you brought it up.
As a community i suppose i just thought we were better than that.
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kevkc
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 12:08
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That the death of the Pope is the first instance of condition black being used is merely coincidence. Think of it as OTF putting its flags to half-mast.
If it had been around for the tsunami, it would have been implemented then.
Dont take it to heart.Countries all over the world which held national days of mourning or put flags to half-mast had the same problem. But there, it was seen as governments showing a favouritism. Though, as OTF isnt a country-and is not of any great importance in the grand scheme of things, take it to be more of a show of solidarity, rather than some big political statement. A "we know what you're going through and support you in your time of need" kinda thing.
KC
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sg8472
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 12:55
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I agree with KC. This is simply a gesture to show respect to a a great man.
Quite frankly, I also thought OTF was beyond labels. So, he was the leader of the Catholic faith? That's only one part of why so many people feel a sense of loss and sadness. Pope John Paul II wasn't just a religious leader, he was also a man who tried to work to benefit more than just Catholics. And, if it was another religious leader, or someone of importance, I would expect similar respect to be shown, even if you didn't share that faith.
And yes, I also do not think Condition Black is solely for the Pope's death. This is the first instance of it's use. If it had been around for the Tsunami Disaster, or 9/11, or the assasination of JFK [Yeah, OTF wasn't even around... but if it had been] I believe Condition Black would have been implemented in those instances also. And if it was JFK would everyone outside of the US break it down to borders. I always thought of OTF as a place beyond borders... and similarly, what your religion is... or race, or sex or sexual preference, or age.
Again, I agree with KC, this is just OTF's version of flags at half-mast. If you don't like it, ignore it!
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 15:07
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christians in general see it a lot differently than those of us without that particular leaning 
KK
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 15:33
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Okay, so I'm not very religious. I'm Christian, but not Catholic, and to be honest it's just written down somewhere without impacting on my life at all.
But - someone somewhere had the idea for a Black Alert, and that's fine, isn't it? I'm not going to repeat what Shane and Kevin said because that'd be pointless, but I agree. As long as it's going to be used for other tragedies too, not that I'm hoping there will be another one.
Another thing, and it doesn't just refer to the Alert Status, I've noticed it with other things too. What does it matter? If you don't like it, or don't care that the Pope has died, well then ignore it - honestly, it's a little picture that's of a different colour than the one that's usually there, so what? There are probably hundreds of things every day that I could take offense to, but the thing is, I don't. Because really, it doesn't matter. I don't want to be offended. I don't want to waste my time looking at everything I see and hear and trying to find something I can get offended at, just so that I've got something to do and someone to give out to...
I mean, if it was the leader of a different religion that died, then I for one wouldn't mind at all if OTF put up a Black alert status... it's all about tolerance at the end of the day, isn't it?
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deanna
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 15:44
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Bria~
You're in the minority...as most of the world seems to want to get offended nowadays.
Everyone Else,
Not sure what all the angst is about myself to be honest. Black Alert is very new. I love the mention of it being similar to flags at half mast. It will NOT be used lightly. We discussed at length whether to use it in this instance or not at all...many many arguments for it were raised by my fellow ECers (and no we're not all a bunch of christians so everyone's opinion was heard) and there were many reasons given beyond that of his position in the Catholic Church.
Simply because he was a man of faith, doesn't mean all the work he did on a global front for many causes should be negated. A good man is being mourned. That's all.
I wonder if it were George Lucas to pass away, would anyone throw a stink? And all he did was create some good movies...
Think about it.
~Kym
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kevkc
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 16:27
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Precisely.
I may be Catholic, but I know if someone like, say, the Dalai Lama died, I'd expect, support and applaud OTF being set to condition black.
I may not hold the same belief as the man, but I can see that he's a good and inspirational person.
Heck, I'd love to meet him!  Same goes for the Chief Rabbi and the heads of many other religions...
It's all about support and tolerance *nods*
KC
He who talks too much
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crazytexan
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 17:01
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George Lucas did make "Howard the Duck"...I wouldn't call that a good movie.
Suppose I'll make the "official" announcement regarding Condition Black. Figured it wouldn't make such a big stink, but that is how it tends to go around here.
Condition Black is similar to lowering flags to half-mast for the following reasons:
-Death of an OTF member.
-Major world tragedy. (ie: the recent tsunami actually was the reason that Condition Black was created)
-Passing of a major world leader/sci-fi fantasy person. This one is up to the EC to decide, and if an OTF member wishes to contact their nearest Sector Commander, Senior Manager, Quadrant Commander and Vice Commander and inform them of such a passing, and if it should result in Condition Black, then it would be considered.
I am disappointed in how quickly a judgment has been made for raising awareness of the passing of a world leader. While people may not agree or care, it is a showing of respect for those that are in mourning. As a world-wide community, I had hope that we were better than this.
Next time the EC will be more careful so not to offend when we change a little graphic from time to time to show respect for the loss of our members, or reflect on a world tragedy...
CT
OTF-VC
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lzrman
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2005 22:00
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Now the whole idea of condition black, in my opinion is a great idea but should be used sparingly as noted above in previous posts.
I myself of the roman catholic religion, mind you I don't attend church as often as my parents want me to due to work. I don't see the pope as a figure head, mind you he may be one to you and he did touch people across the globe.
"if were going to use condition black for the pope, i think thats fine as long as any one else who dies gets it. If everyone disagree's then we should not use it" (Quote from an OTF member)
Lzrman
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xemxija
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 00:10
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A great man has died?
I suppose it's great to let millions of people suffer and die because of silly beliefs...
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jadzia_jones1
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 00:13
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Well done OTF! I applauded the change. If I remember rightly we are a community, and in such we mourn as a community. It shows respect for the person who died, and for all the good he / she has done in the world.
Having a ' Black alert ' as a sign of mourning for the Pope, is not only a sign of respect for the great man he was, but for the members who are in our OTF community, who are deeply touched / affected by his death.
I'm sure if you could see past your nose, OTF wouldn't just use the 'Black Alert' just on this occasion. And give CT and his crew a little more credit.
* Jadzia *
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crazytexan
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 00:58
Reply
Okay, so maybe the Condition Black should have been used for the wedding of Prince Charles this weekend. I assume that is more acceptable? 
Either way, the status will be back to 'normal' soon enough.
CT
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richard
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 01:33
Reply
Okay..... just about every opinion has been voiced. Nothing more can be said IMHO without falling into repetition.
I therefor suggest locking this thread before things get out hand. Religion after all will always remain a touchy subject.
Richard
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kali
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 03:09
Reply
I agree with the premise of the new condition black and although i am a rather lapsed Presbyterian, feel it appropriate that it is our "flags at half mast" means of respect for a fallen leader, regardless of faith, position, nationality, and all that was said previously.
The thing that really yanks my chain is that nothing at all was said prior to this "condition" being raised. Did anyone else not notice that on the status notice, there was mention of the Pope's passing, and remembrance of his life? Since the day he died? Nope, not a peep out of any members.
But heaven forbid, we add somethig that reflects the community's respect for an unhappy world event and immediately out of the woodwork, comes a voice of discontent.
We have always agreed to disagree at OTF, but IMHO, this one was plain silly. I hope we never have to use Condition Black again, but if we do, I also hope that we will all have the common sense, good manners, tolerance and kindness of heart to respect each others feeling and beliefs and express our own with a bit more sensibility in keeping with the 3 R's.
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jadzia_jones1
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 05:12
Reply
<!--QuoteBegin--kali+April 10 2005,03:09--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (kali @ April 10 2005,03:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing that really yanks my chain is that nothing at all was said prior to this "condition" being raised. Did anyone else not notice that on the status notice, there was mention of the Pope's passing, and remembrance of his life? Since the day he died? Nope, not a peep out of any members.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>* Yanks Kali's chain ' <img src="http://communications.outpost10f.com/~birthday/YOU_RO~1.GIF" border="0">ermmmm we did in Announcments *l*<img src="http://communications.outpost10f.com/~birthday/TONGUE~1.GIF" border="0"><br><br><a href="http://www.outpost10f.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.pl?act=ST;f=37;t=6911" target="_blank">http://www.outpost10f.com/cgi-bin....;t=6911</a><br><br>* jadzia *
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babel
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 05:12
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For the record, yeah, what Lisa said. 100%.
You know what . . bugger this.
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 05:51
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A couple of politely raise their eyebrows and we're being unbearably intolerant?
Millions of folks thought Jean Paul was a great man, millions of people thought the opposite. You will note the dissenting voices are few and more hullabaloo has been caused by the "for" people.
I'm not sure if you'll get this but the condition indicates that the whole site "mourns" and not all of us are. It also indicates that we're a "christian" site to some degree and again not all of us are. If this in your eyes makes us bad people, or intolerant people or pointless complainers then fine, but last time I checked people were still entitled to their opinion and by the same rote you can ignore this thread.
KK
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kali
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 07:03
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obviously i was misunderstood.
I meant that nothing was said regarding the Status Notice, the forum threads, taglines, etc. in reference to the Pope's passing, etc. until the new Condition Black was used.
I am not trying to put my personal religious beliefs, or politics or anything else in anyone's face - and I don't think that it is appropriate for anyone else to do the same.
What you believe or not is your biusiness.
All this was is a gesture of respect for a man who died.
Can't we just agree on that without all the rest of the baggage?
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kittykat
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 07:21
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As long as it's understood that not everyone respected him.
KK
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kali
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 09:31
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Of course. We are a global community. We won't always agree but we can agree to respect each other and not make it an issue when we don't.
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stav219
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 10:13
Reply
""
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rpmobsession
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 11:25
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Ok. Now, that the "official" message has been said. I understand and have no problem with it. I did not know that this condition black was in the works, and because of that, I thought it was kinda weird that we would have it now, for this reason. Maybe an explaination should have been put up with the alert status in the Updates? I, for one, was a little confused on why we had it, but with the guidelines and reasons, it makes sense.
Oh, and Kali, I think the reason why no one made a hallabaloo (?) about it anywhere else is because the forum topics are member made. It's not OTF doing it. Same thing with the updates thing. Again, member made. But, having it in the chatroom, made it OTF made. So, that's why something got said now... Ya know?
And, I think I realized why we get in silly little arguements. When big things happen, touchy topics are touched upon, and so on and so forth, I think the people who disagree with whatever the discussion is wants to say something so they can be heard. Because in real life, not as many people would hear you or listen. But, on-line, more people are going to read it, agree with it, disagree with it, and it just feels all around better to be able to discuss your view point on such a large basis. In real life, where only one to four people at a time, on average, will hear your standpoint on an issue, on-line especially in a chatroom or on active forums, you can let more people know where you stand. And, everyone likes to know whether someone else agrees with them, and everyone likes just to be heard, especially if their viewpoint is on the disagreeing side. Make sense? Who knows.
-RPMObsession
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sg8472
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 11:43
Reply
<!--QuoteBegin--kittykat+April 10 2005,05:51--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (kittykat @ April 10 2005,05:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->A couple of politely raise their eyebrows and we're being unbearably intolerant?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>I'm sorry, but I disagree. I haven't seen any intolerence being made in response to "raised eyebrows". What I've noted is a genuinely polite opinion being voiced, and in response other people's point of views. <br><br>I know, almost everywhere, religion is a touchy subject, but so far I think everyone in this thread has voiced their own opinions in a respectful, tolerent manner. <br><br>What's surprised be more is that people are actually <i>debating</i> this, and offering their own stand-points, rather than arguing their opinions.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 12:25
Reply
<!--QuoteBegin--kittykat+April 10 2005,05:51--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (kittykat @ April 10 2005,05:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not sure if you'll get this but the condition indicates that the whole site "mourns" and not all of us are. It also indicates that we're a "christian" site to some degree and again not all of us are. If this in your eyes makes us bad people, or intolerant people or pointless complainers then fine, but last time I checked people were still entitled to their opinion and by the same rote you can ignore this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br><font color=#9999ff>I thought it indicated that we, as a community, are showing respect to the guy. If it were anyone else, say the Dalai Lama, would it mean that OTF is a Buddhist community? No. We'd just be showing respect for him. And personally, I wouldn't have a problem with that. No one's asking you to actually mourn him. But as a community, is it such a bad thing to show solidarity to those people who <i>are</i>? I mean, if you had a friend whose grandfather died, for example, would you say "Oh look, I didn't know your grandad so I don't care" or would you comfort them and show them solidarity anyway? You may not care about their family, but you care about them, don't you?<br><br>Another thing - my school was closed for the funeral day. If you carry this to its logical conclusion, would that mean that, not being Catholic, I should've gone anyway? Kicked up a fuss because of it? Saying "I'm being denied my education for this day because this guy who I don't care about has died!"? If your workplace was closed and you were, say, Hindu, would you have complained, or would you have taken the day off? Just something to think about...
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austins
Member
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# Posted: 10 Apr 2005 14:34
Reply
Okay, so you may not be religious, you may not have known the pope personally, you may have different views than he does, and different beliefs.. Is that any reason you cannot feel sadness in his passing?
Are you seriously that bitter and cold inside that you do not feel sadness when your fellow man passes on? This is not a man who has committed great atrocities in his time. This is a good man who has helped many people.
If all you have in your life is to moan and complain about people showing compassion for others, then I pity your existance.
If it will appease the black-hearted masses, then I will update the alert to read "Some of Outpost10f's members pay tribute to the life and ....."
Seriously,
~ Jon
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