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daecrist
Member
# Posted: 27 Aug 2005 15:01
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<!--QuoteBegin--quincyw+Aug. 17 2005,18:28--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (quincyw @ Aug. 17 2005,18:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lieutenant Hawk from ST: First Contact was gay too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><br>Quick question here, but where in First Contact does it say this?  I've heard people mention Hawk's sexuality before, but I never heard any mention of it either directly or indirectly in the movie or the book based on the film.  Just wondering where it came from.  <!--emo&:P--><img src="http://www.outpost10f.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/ton.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':P'><!--endemo-->

rednave
Member
# Posted: 28 Aug 2005 05:17
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http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hawk

"While rumors have persisted that Lt. Hawk was originally intended to be Star Trek 's first openly gay character, the producers of Star Trek: First Contact and actor Neal McDonough have denied this. However, Hawk is indeed depicted as being gay in the novel Section 31: Rogue, which has been referenced again in the Star Trek: Titan novel series"

daecrist
Member
# Posted: 28 Aug 2005 11:14
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So it's fanon, not canon.  :P  That's all I wanted to know.

rednave
Member
# Posted: 29 Aug 2005 06:07
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Yup, suppose it could be considered cannon until the show or movie cancell it out.  Though I fail to see how making Hawk gay would have had any point in the entire of First Contact, he was a minor character created to die.

brady
Member
# Posted: 30 Aug 2005 15:02
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IMO, Television definitely does influence society and culture.  Television is one of the most widely accessible forms of culture in the world - it's beamed into our homes every day for hours on end.  If you think watching TV has no influence over you or your societal attitudes.. good luck with that.  =d

The point is that characters that appear on TV reinforce socio-cultural narratives.  On ST you have a bunch of characters that people can relate to of all different races, religions, backgrounds, interests, personality types, leadership styles, etc.  When someone relates to one of these characters it reinforces a cultural acceptance.  I believe what the people that wrote the article in question and a few others on this froum are trying to put forward is that integrating a gay/bi character into Star Trek would be an accurate reflection of the current social landscape and would also provide a positive rolemodel for the gay/bi audience.

Further to Monny's point, seeing a black woman on ST was definitely a positive move.  It empowered other black women that saw Uhura.  Whoopi Goldberg, for example, I believe.  Thus, the same can be said for gay/bi people.  Through media representation, homo/bisexuality is pushed to the fore as a representation of actual society and reinforces the "...it's OK to be gay" message just like it reinforced the "it's OK to be a black woman" message.  Having said that, ST has probably missed the boat on the issue.  Still, it'd be good to see.

Good topic though.  Feel free to continue debating.. But be warned, cultural sociology has been my area of study over the past two years.   :o

nicoll
Member
# Posted: 31 Aug 2005 03:29
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First can I just say that I'm just writing my opinion of things without any knowledge of how other people think.  I also don't watch a lot of TV and I certainly don't take it seriously.  I'm also probably not taking into account the effect it can have on younger viewers becauswe I know very little about how children think (it's not like I used to be one).  

I'm willing to accept that a lot of people's lives are influenced by TV.  I'm not willing to accept the argument that TV shows can change people's opinions about race or sexual orientation.

If you are a big filthy racist, seeing a black woman on TV is not going to change it.  And if you think that the appearance of one black woman on TV has had a major influence on the campaign for racial equality I'd say that's just naive.  That's not to say there are not individual cases where this has had some influence.

But my real point was that Star Trek or any TV show does not have any duty to present "an accurate reflection of the current social landscape".  Network Television shows is a vehicle for entertainment and selling advertising space not for making social or political commentaries.

And if people out there are as influennced by TV as you all seem to think then I for one, think that it is a very sad thing that people need TV for this.

As for my background in cultural sociology, it extends to the entirety of this post and not beyond.

Edit: am I allowed to call racists filthy? :v



monny
Member
# Posted: 2 Sep 2005 12:20
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Is this topic "gay trek" or not?

Race and sexual orientation are not the same thing people.
I'm not going to debate the effects TV has on social acceptance.
Brady can do that. :P
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"It's ok to be a black woman"
I sure would hope so......... otherwise a few hundreds of millions of people have to try and get a sex and race change in one go. :?

I should give up...I mean really.... why do I bother?

stewie
Member
# Posted: 17 Sep 2005 19:46
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"When someone relates to one of these characters it reinforces a cultural acceptance. "

Don't believe you at all I'm afraid... see theres a little thing called context

I don't believe the first on screen multi cultral kiss enforced acceptance...quite the contary

Kirk Kisses A Woman Of Color of his own free will under no other influence...but he wanted to kiss her simply because he cared for her deeply and had formed a realationship with her....

That would reinforce social and personal acceptance.....

Unfortunately...thats not what happened....this is

Kirk under the influence of some toxin, virus, alien influnce kissed a woman of color......

just look at the context .....its all out of whack... its saying

Kirk would never kiss a woman of color unless under the influence of some toxin, virus , alien influence....

True He kissed Iman in undiscovered country of his own free will.... but when he did.......

She turned out to be a shape shifting back stabber

So now we have

Kirk would never kiss a woman of color unless under the influence of some toxin, virus , alien influence..... but if he ever does.... she will turn into a vicious shape shifting back staber....

hardly enforcing positive archetypes here.....

On the Naïve level it may well be enforcing them, at the same time its also appealing to the bigot.

Such a well thought out and "groundbreaking" show would surely think very carefully about their context if they were truely trying to enforce positive rolemodels no?

By the way, my favourite Star Trek movie is the wrath of Khan.... its a simple story of revenge and dos'nt try to force issues, which we can see by above examples, are often done with little thought and lazy execution...often causing more harm than good...

Star Trek should not try to explore sensitive issues if it is not committed to exploring them in depth and with a greater idea of what they are trying to do.....

Really there are enough movies out there dedicated to themes of sexual orientatin and race that are far better explored and executed surperbly well.... trek... stick to the sci-fi

Trek is never going to be be "Crash" or "Beautiful Thing" or "The Color Purple" or "Roots"

Maybe having a multi racial, multi sexual, multi sexually orientated crew is a way of saying, in the future we have eliminated all forms of bigotry and oppurtunities exist for all... well yes, that is a good message....I'm all for that. However...

Treks idea of a utopia is to have a global war first..... (trek is set after a third world war)

Context again says......  People will only accept each other once we have been taken to the brink of extinction....

Where are the regular Jewish crew members?, where are the regular Muslim crew members? Have they been wiped out in the 24th century? or assimulated and had their cultral identidy eliminated?



aeon
Member
# Posted: 26 Nov 2006 08:59
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It's always fun to see when people get off a track with a certain topic. Why are we talking about Uhura here? Is she gay? I don't think so. And I have to agree with Monny when I say, that these are two different pairs of shoes that should be discussed in two different threads.

The sad part of all this is, that the last post has been over a year ago, without coming to a conclusion. We're just getting off the track, as usual.

So, back to the topic.

Do I want to see a gay character in Trek? - Yes. Definitely. And I agree with others who said that they shouldn't make an issue about that. Just a character who's gay and that's it. I know a lot of people who are openly gay and just live it without being the stereotypical drag queen or whatever. And I actually hate it when people ask someone: "Are you gay?" I mean, is it so special that you have to ask this question? Ever thought of the other way? What if someone comes to you and asks: "Btw, are you heterosexual?" Is being heterosexual the most important part of your personality? I guess not. And so isn't homosexuality. IDIC, my dear people. Just let everyone live how they want to live and don't question it or make it "an issue". So, if a gay character on Trek appears, they shouldn't make the biggest deal of it. But still it would be nice to see a happy gay couple on Trek. Kudos to Jeri Taylor and her book "Pathways" btw.

'nuff said

polson
Member
# Posted: 28 Nov 2006 08:23
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If you need your tv to tell you that you're okay, you're not okay.

aeon
Member
# Posted: 28 Nov 2006 10:28
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That's not the point, I guess.

babel
Member
# Posted: 29 Nov 2006 23:35
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Gay characters?

Captain Jack Harkness, 'Doctor Who' and now 'Torchwood'.

Though to be honest, Jack would do anything, male or female ;)

cmdr_worf
Member
# Posted: 30 Nov 2006 15:36
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Aeon - nicely put.
I thought the issue was very nicely 'nodded at' in TNG's The Outcast and DS9's Chimera. It wasn't made out like it was a big deal in the Trek universe (though unfortunatly it was when they aired in our universe).To me it suggests that homosexuality is present in the Trek universe, but not such a big deal, that you have to have a neon sign saying 'look-here-comes-the-gay-show'.
And do you know what is funny, we all seem to be saying the same thing in different ways, yet it somehow turned into a big debate that went a bit off track on the racism issue!

cmdr_worf
Member
# Posted: 1 Dec 2006 13:06
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Don't know if it's been mentioned, but I just remembered DS9's 'rejoined' with Jadzia Dax and Lenara Kahn aswell.



candyshop
Member
# Posted: 1 Dec 2006 17:53
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Honestly, I agree with Monny...  What does being a black woman have to do with homosexuality?

That being said...  As people living in 2006 where interracial marriage is common it's easy to say that a kiss between Kirk and Uhura didn't matter.

The fact of the matter is, they kissed.  And people were outraged, regardless of Kirks sobriety at the moment.  

It's easy to say that one doesn't get cultural acceptance from Television but thats not really true.  TV doesn't talk about things that are taboo, I mean, honestly, if Kirk and Uhura's kiss hadn't been something that had previously been taboo would anyone have even brought it up?  

I watched TOS in reruns and TNG growing up and I enjoyed seeing Guinan, Geordi LaForge and Worf, I loved the fact that when DS9 came on the Commander was black...  But he was a Commander.  Ever think about that, he didn't get promoted to Captain until later in the series and that was AFTER people broached the subject about it.  

It's easy for the majority of people to say that what the minority of people should think or feel.

Besides, I always thought LaForge and Data were gonna hook up.

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