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polson
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2007 07:32
Reply
What do I want to see? Ezri. And I do. My work here is done.
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2007 07:33
Reply
Oh wait. I want to see Stargate. I guess my work isn't done. 
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sg8472
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2007 08:02 · Edited by: sg8472
Reply
In my opinion, things around here have gotten far too complex. From having way too many departments, to the teams within them, to the approval process for projects, to just recommending someone for a promotion, and yes, we have too many chatrooms than are necessary.
What we need to do is simplify. It's like the only way we feel OTF is thriving is if there's 10 different things going on at once.
I also don't get why people are opposed to opening up the themes a little. ST, SW, and LOTR are not bringing in the new members. Maybe next year, ST 11 might give us a boost, but what are we going to do in the meantime? Stagnate? Change is inevitable, people, and as it stand at the moment, OTF is lying by the wayside.
If we want to attract new members we need to get our name out there. We need to up our profile. We can do this by either broadening our scope and incorporating other sci-fi themes, or specialising in one genre, like just ST, and become the best ST chatroom.
IMO, I'd much rather open things up to fans of other sci-fi shows.
As such, I also think a single room is more than sufficient to accomplish this. It could have a generic chat-top, yes, but it would also have avatars to select from a lot of different shows (not just ST in TF or SW in CCC), and an armory that can generate commands related to a chosen genre. Select SW in the armory you get a blaster, Select ST in the armory you get a Phaser, select Stargate you get a Zat Gun. And this could be set up for a multitude of shows, and members wouldn't be split between several different rooms, and we could ditch the 'Lurk Cam'
We'd still be a Sci-Fi and Fantasy community, but we wouldn't be restricted to the 3 niches we've carved for ourselves. We're working with franchises which, at the moment anyway, have depleting fan bases. And if you can't accept the fact that OTF needs to change, then think of it this way, we're all eventually going to leave (whether for good, or temporarily), and without a next generation of new members OTF won't be around should you decide to return. The numbers are just going to decrease until there aren't enough left. It's the people who make this place!
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fat_man
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2007 16:18 · Edited by: fat_man
Reply
Being the eternal Pessimist i am
I bet you for all we shout here nothing will change. we might get the odd tiny change to the site.
But nothing major like what is being discussed here. In fact i've worked out the odds, with the numbe of threads (i remmember) and conversations held with higher ups with regard to change at OTF and of course my usual informed guesses about the number of times this has probebly been brought up on the ec ring per year. and the actual resulting major changes at wait for it a resounding
30552 to 1
There are plenty of good ideas out there, that can be used and even more not so good ones. But over the years it seems to me that trying to get approval for good changes is like me going on a night out. Doomed to failure.
But i've been here less than 10 years what do i know
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Feeble
Moderator
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2007 18:08
Reply
Alright, I feel to some authority I can address this now. Departments, ranks and cliques and how they work together.
I could never be excepted into a department because some of the peeps up top didn't like me, none the less for quite a while I came here chatted loyally and became a good friend and a good supporter of the community. In the last few months I've done some stuff for Guilds - which is nice, considdering I was snubbed for quite some time for reasons unbeknownst to me. Therefore, for close to 8 years I've been a lieutenant (and perfectly happy) and just supported the chat the best way I could while not being wanted for departments.
So condensced: The problem with ranks being based on departmental work is the cliques that have been discussed and batted about, so therefore for some people climbing up the ranks just will not happen until they wait for their break. This to me, is absolute nonsence.
This isn't to say I don't believe I've worked hard in the last few months, BUT to say I am any more valuable than I have been for the past 9 years is frankly beyond me. I've been less involved in the chat and more involved in general chatter. I DO believe that people should be recognised for departmental work, but I don't think it should be the only way we can crawl up the ranks...
This - goes to my other beef. OTF has a nasty habit of only holding loyalty for certain people and other loyalties are broken when it is no longer valuable for those loyalties to be held. I've seen many people be turned out with the bathwater for various reasons, some maybe justified, some not. Not to mention, just poor handling of situations. This to me is where the cliques get very dangerous. There's no problem with people being cliquey if they're just talking, but when it comes to open ignoring of people, promotions and gossip on IMs etc etc, this can be extremely hurtful and damaging. Furthermore leading to extradition and all sorts of misunderstandings. We're very quick to judge in this community and I think that sometimes people who don't understand that are chased away before they've even got the chance to see what's going on.
Finally. This place is so American-centric that it's laughable. This goes to how the marketing draws in new Americans, but last time I met a new Aussie-sider was... long ago. I agree with AJ that I come in to see old friends, but I'd like to meet new ones too. I'd also like to be able to talk about the world climate and religion. Generally speaking, people get away with debating all sorts of things about Islam, Buddhism and the merits/downfalls of a Hindi lifestyle, as soon as anyone touches Christianity it's on for young and old. Same deal with American politics. And even just playful banter. Touch the brits it's ok, touch the Americans, you'll have a war on your hands.
This needs addressing in terms of marketing and how we phrase certain things. I think we need to stop babying everyone in this community. I think we need to find a way of rejuvenating the fun. I think we need to start actually practicing multi-culturalism and diversity across the board, not only when it serves us to do so. I think we need to stop worrying about what makes the chat look pretty and start listening to the people who we're here for. I think we need to focus on making this chat about people again, not about rules and stigmas.* And most of all, we need to stop saying 'we need to do this because this is how it has always been', or saying 'we can change this, but NOT this... that's too close to /me/'.
What's the point in keep on going if even those who love the place are getting sick of it, and our registrations are fatally low? I'm not sure if I arrived at OTF these days as a newbie I'd want to stick around either - to be perfectly frank.
We have to look at the things that make OTF what it is and how to better enhance that once again IMO.
* I'd like to reiterate my earlier comment that this is a chat room, not a myspace/facebook/bebo thing. We come here to chat, and essentially that's why it is good, it's an open and real time conversation. Do NOT change that, essentially I don't think we could even compete if we tried, too much effort for a cause not worth it.
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kayana
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 03:50
Reply
Mmm acceptance over tolerance- I like that. FM, at list this time this is from the EC down not just you so give me some optimism luv 
Bria, I think the intention here is not to draw more chatters but just up the number of regular chatters/chatting whether it be by bringing back old members or new members to the site, which I have a sneaking feeling, may well be one and the same thing.
Yeah I would like to see a broader sci-fi/fantasy niche but no yahoo chats either...Who knows, maybe by just having 2 or 3 rooms we can really give our server a break
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 04:13
Reply
From what I have seen now, I think it is in the majority vote so far that there should only be 2 or 3 chatrooms in the Outpost, and that we should not go to adding extra ranks, am I hearing that correctly? That is about all I can see most people agreeing on.
And I agree that the main page could use some spring cleaning. WAY too much to look at, whether it is a veteran or a newbie, ACK!
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sg8472
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 07:46
Reply
Quoting: Feeble I'd like to reiterate my earlier comment that this is a chat room, not a myspace/facebook/bebo thing.
I don't think anyone is saying get rid of the chatroom in favour of a profile based community, but merely pointing out that most online communities today are entirely based around that concept. I do think, however, that, considering we already have the foundations for one, we should extend our profile system along similar lines. If anything it means our community wouldn't solely rely on the chatroom to attract new members, and sci-fi/fantasy fans who would just like somewhere to connect with like-minds and discuss topics via comments might discover this is such a place. And, more likely than not, if that's the gateway I'm sure you'll find a lot more people entering the chatroom soon after.
Quoting: Feeble This place is so American-centric that it's laughable.
I never actually thought about it like that, but the more I think about it the more I agree. It seems anything that the Americans consider a touchy subject is off-limits, regardless of how the rest of the world views it. But then again, I think that's just because the majority of our membership are American. You're right, we do need to try to attract members from other areas of the world.
And back to my other point, OTF is becoming out-dated. I don't believe we have to do anything drastic to attract new members. Just look at what is working for us, and what isn't... and then look at what is working for every other popular online community, and see if we can take similar steps. OTF is a chatroom first, we should hold on to that, but it doesn't mean we can't explore other areas.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 08:11
Reply
Quoting: kayana Bria, I think the intention here is not to draw more chatters but just up the number of regular chatters/chatting whether it be by bringing back old members or new members to the site, which I have a sneaking feeling, may well be one and the same thing.
Well, in that case I don't see why we should make it open-themed in order to attract a wider variety of people. To me, that idea feels a bit like selling out. It's a bit like if I were to start drawing anime just because it's more popular than realistic sketches these days... all for the sake of having more people admire my work. Y'know?
As for the America-centric business... I really don't see why we can't discuss things like religion or politics. Personally, I've no interest in politics, but I know that many people do. I've asked this before and I'll ask it again, what's wrong with a debate?
And another thing. People take offence at the stupidest things these days. I mean - my grandad fought on the side of the Nazis in WWII, I'm German myself, but I haven't once taken offence at someone's generalising anti-Nazi comments. Even though I'm sure I could. And I have plenty of other examples there. But it seems to me that as long as it's not an American issue, it's not really an issue.
And it also seems that as soon as something gets slightly too close to home, slightly too uncomfortable, as soon as someone starts asking questions that make you think a bit too much, and that you don't like the answer to... it's suddenly against the rules, or disrespectful. Why?
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 09:25
Reply
I know that I wouldn't mind seeing some debates about American issues. I might not participate in said debates since I suck at debating about politics and whatnot, but still, I see nothing wrong with them. As long as people aren't idiots about it.
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fat_man
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 10:48
Reply
I'm Offended =@
I don't want to be optimistic, cos then i'll have hope and hope is a dangerous thing. Also on a lighter note Pessimism is my Thing.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 12:20
Reply
Stapler, you're always offended. I'm offended at your offended-ness. 
I don't care what people debate about. As long as it's not "I'm right you're wrong haha now stfu", because while that's okay for the playground, it's not very constructive.
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 13:02
Reply
Quoting: bria I don't care what people debate about. As long as it's not "I'm right you're wrong haha now stfu", because while that's okay for the playground, it's not very constructive.
That's why I don't debate much. That's my main argument that you just gave.
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 16:20
Reply
Yeah...you know I think you're all on to something with that. I mean, it's one thing to go into chat and say "bush is a ninny" and it's another to say "I don't like the current government because of how this situation is handled and the policies, blah blah blah". We seem to come down on the latter on the off chance it might turn into the former.
I have found SEVERAL times that I get in trouble in chat when I bash Canada. I'm CANADIAN! That's what we do! We make fun of Canada! We also make fun of America, but in secret (and by secret, I mean on TV). If you like the liberals, you make fun of them! If you don't like them, you make fun of them! That is our way. We just like to laugh at ourselves. That's why we watch Royal Canadian Air Farce. But some people gasp and wave phasers over it, and I don't know why.
And Pheebs is right...folks can talk about all kinds of stuff without issue, but you bring up Christianity and everything goes HAYWIRE. You either end up with bible bashers or bible thumpers in an all out war (which is why I refuse to discuss my beliefs in chat period). I don't know if I had a point with that one. Um...Dion is a weenie!
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 16:46
Reply
At the rate that we're going with talking about this in circles, I'm doubting anythings going to get done now.
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sg8472
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 17:07
Reply
I'm with Majin. I feel like we're just regurgitating the same points over and over again. I guess if that makes things clearer then it's a good thing, but unless I hear feedback from someone with "authority" soon, regarding their own discussions within the EC, and what and if they intend to do about our opinions, I'm going to start thinking this is all a waste of time.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 17:37
Reply
It's a bit of a Monty Python situation, really.
FRANCIS:
Yeah, twelve months. And, let's face it. As empires go, this is the big one, so we've got to get up off our arses and stop just talking about it!
COMMANDOS:
Hear! Hear!
LORETTA:
I agree. It's action that counts, not words, and we need action now.
COMMANDOS:
Hear! Hear!
REG:
You're right. We could sit around here all day talking, passing resolutions, making clever speeches. It's not going to shift one Roman soldier!
FRANCIS:
So, let's just stop gabbing on about it. It's completely pointless and it's getting us nowhere!
COMMANDOS:
Right!
LORETTA:
I agree. This is a complete waste of time.
... but seriously. Like I said in the other thread. Why are sitting here complaining and talking and blah blah blah, instead of just logging into the chat? It's kind of silly at this point. We're just talking. Let me ask the EC - is anything actually going to change or are we just discussing these things for the hell of it? 
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 17:42
Reply
Quoting: sg8472 It seems anything that the Americans consider a touchy subject is off-limits, regardless of how the rest of the world views it
Let's not shoot all of the Americans for what some peple do not want to talk about.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 17:45
Reply
Quoting: majin_fett At the rate that we're going with talking about this in circles, I'm doubting anythings going to get done now.
We need to take this to the next step then, now lets debate on what the next step is and get it all over with.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 17:50
Reply
Buck, no one's shooting anyone. No one's shooting all of the Americans. That isn't what Shane said. 
Yes, let's take it to the next step. The next step being, debating what the next step is. Then take said next step, which we have not yet identified, which hopefully lead onto another as-of-yet unidentified step which may in fact solve the problem, although it may require another debate to actually identify it in the first place. Simple!
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demonvamp
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 17:50
Reply
"The weighted companion cube DOES speak. Superstition, perceiving inanimate objects as alive, and hallucinations. I'm not hallucinating. You are. The companion cube would never desert me. Dessert. So long... Cake. Ha ha, Cake. A lie. The companion cube would never lie to me. NEVER."
And now back to our regular programming.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 17:56
Reply
Alright, who is going to be the one that makes the Ultimate decision here that will make the changes? We need to give that person all of the pros and cons of what we have all talked about, and give him/her the support to make these changes ASAP.
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skevington
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 18:06
Reply
I can assure you i started this thread with the genuine desire of the EC to pursue a program of change for the outpost. I am now informed that change will have to wait. Don't shoot the messenger - i already shot one of them myself!
When i started this thread a majority of the EC were not informed from anyone at the top i.e. the top three (CiC, VC, QC) about any potential barriers to change. Some of the items discussed here was already mentioned and decided upon back at the time of the otf anniversary.
Yet we are now informed that there are other more pressing issues to deal with regarding the server meaning other things will apparently have to wait.
I am not feeding you a load of crap. I am being level with you and telling you the situation how it is. I do not like it anymore than you do. I have got angry about it myself. I got angry about it with our QC. I got angry about it with the EC. In short - don't expect to see change over night.
We are still pursuing change for the outpost. We are still talking and debating and deciding about the details. But as and when the time will be appropriate to enforce the program along the lines i and a majority of my EC comrades desire i do not know.
We too (like all of you) must wait patiently for the word.
Yours in Comradeship,
Dmitri
ST DSC
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 18:18
Reply
Lee... please inform whoever is "at the top" that this is incredibly silly. What are these people here for if all they do is wait? And by that I don't mean the EC member who, as you said, are still debating and talking things through. In fact, I kind of feel sorry for the EC, it's not a nice position to be stuck in right now, is it?
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amandasp
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 18:20
Reply
Quoting: bria In fact, I kind of feel sorry for the EC, it's not a nice position to be stuck in right now, is it?
No, it sucks severely. I'm personally tired of it. Great ideas and plans... but no way to do anything. We're just in the dark about some things as the membership is.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 18:22
Reply
Well this is pretty retarded then.
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sg8472
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 18:44
Reply
Insomnia strikes! I can't sleep... I'm tired, but can not sleep. Not fair!
But, back on topic...
RED FRAKKIN' TAPE!!!!!!!!
How many levels of authority do we really need?
Let's see what we have.... CiC, VC, QC, SC (x3), DSC (x3). And that's just the overall admin stuff. When you take in the departments and teams, SMs and TLs, there's just a ridiculous amount of approval necessary.
It can't be that difficult to go "Hmm, it really looks like the majority of the rooms are rarely, if ever, in use. Let's just get rid of them and consolidate everything in to one or two rooms!" 
And who exactly is "at the top"... how far do these things need to go before it gets the go-ahead?
And, DmitriLee, I'm ain't blaming you. If anything you're probably doing the most to keep the rest of us informed of what's going on, so thanks.
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Feeble
Moderator
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 20:54
Reply
Ok - so I hear the up tops got some stuff to sort out before we make any major changes. Hear that.
Is there stuff that we can do in the meantime? Obviously we can't change themes, we can't cut chatrooms and we can't change major things like ranks, avs and the way the chat works/looks. But! Can we all plug OTF in places like say LJ, myspace and stuff? Can we let things like the Guilds and Trivia (quite unique to OTF I believe) start speaking out and giving more of an avenue for communication?
Just because we can't make /big/ changes doesn't mean we can't change the attitude of this place, make things start to happen to affect change to make it easier when that time comes?
If we all agree that OTF is worth fighting for and change /does/ start with us, then why don't we try to start with the smaller things, get people excited about the community again and find a way to recharge ourselves? I know that the Guilds have been working hard in this respect, so what can we do as a large body overall to start preserving what we hold dear?
I'm willing to find sci-fi communities on LJ and post an ad for OTF... what else can anyone think of?
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lzrman
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 21:01
Reply
CIC
VCIC
QC
SC
DSC
This look like a lot of layers? I think so!
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 21:44
Reply
Quoting: lzrman This look like a lot of layers? I think so!
There should only be a couple of those boxes up there.
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