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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 18:18
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But there is nothing I can do about it is there?
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korny
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 19:13
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Quoting: bria People don't usually just decide "Oh, we don't like him/her, let's annoy them", y'know?
I do! 
Well, not really. I just wanted to say something. 
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 21:05
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Quoting: bria Buck, please don't take this personally, but: OTF's ranks work in a specific way. There's a specific system. You've been here a long time, you know the system, you know the rules. If you haven't got to the rank you want to be at, then maybe you haven't been playing by the rules.
Err...just cuz things have been done a certain way for a long time, doesn't mean they're the right way to be doing things.
Isn't that what the entire "OTF Change" thread is about?
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 21:17
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I think the problem is on one hand the powers that be say "ranks don't really matter" and on the other hand, they say "work hard for your rank so it matters." Kind of a double standard. Which is why I rebel. Which is why I think I do great work and I begrudge them for promoting to me to CL5 when I didn't want to be. They are a thorn in my side, and I aim to return the favor!
And to be fair, Buck has a point. It is not always easy to play by the rules. For my first two years at OTF I tried to get into a department. I applied to near every one of them on multiple occations with no luck. Zilette had to SNEAK me into counselling as Dr. P. Goldfish so I was never official and it was very short lived. After the whole "special rank" fiasco, I abandonded my command code for five years, during which time I turned down two department offers on principle. For the last couple of years I've been playing ball - a fact I'm sure no one truly appreciates with the possible exception of Jeff Greenwald - and in the course of doing so I believe all my concerns about ranks and priviledges have been confirmed. I'm still playing ball however, in the belief that I can be part of the solution or the problem and it's easier to be a part of either in a higher status. And that takes time. Good grief, I've spent two years in DEPARTMENTS in an effort to some day reach a place where I can effect change in a CHAT ROOM. Shame the eight years prior to that doesn't count cuz I wasn't a member of anything beyond the chatroom itself, hmmm?
I need a boyfriend.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 21:38
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All I am saying is I have done what the rules said and what the Brass has told me to do. Departments are the hardest thing to get into, I don't know if it is only me but I sure can't get into any, except for the Poetry Guild which I am happy for.
But that is why I started this forum here because I wanted SOMEONE to know that I believe that Departments should change so that everyone has a fair chance of getting into them, so that they CAN go by the rules. I mean seriously, why should I be turned down left and right and NOT even get a reply back to most of my applications. I just think those things should change that I listed on the first post of this forum.
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 22:28
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Alright, does someone just want my CL7 rank? Seriously, if the powers that be wants to give it to someone who believes that they deserve it, go for it. I'll gladly knock myself back down to CL3 or 4, just to work myself back up the ranks. Seriously, I will.
And seriously, if you have knowledge in ST, SW, or Fantasy, or hell, anything else since we're adding themes to events, apply for Trivia. I feel that we are one of the most accepting teams in OTF. I've turned down maybe 3 people at the most, because of attitude (for one person, not naming names), and the others had real life problems hit them.
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Feeble
Moderator
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 22:30
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I should mention that I am talking years ago... but even so, it gave me a very... erm - anti-department mentality for a very very long time. And the idea of a promotion kinda made me want to run the other way. Still does, kinda.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 22:55
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I hear a lot of senior ranked folks wanting to give back their rank, they don't want it, it has caused them too much stress, etc etc etc. I know that most people think I am whining about this because I have heard it before LOTS of times, oh well. I don't want to be GIVEN anything. I just thought that maybe I earned something after all of this time is all.
And I understand that Trivia will be an accepting team. And I appreciate your kindness on that. Perhaps one day I will attempt to apply to all of the departments again.
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 23:22
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Actually, I do want my rank, but I can always work my ass off to get it back if need be.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2007 23:24
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Well that is great.
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kayana
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 03:15 · Edited by: kayana
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I'm reading this thread with great interest because I have a direct impact on promotions every month. The one thing that sticks out in my head however, is that the main people responsible for promos each month are:
Lee, Amanda, Hobbie, myself, Hong, Hal, Luc, Alivan, Maxwell
When I look at ourselves at a group I don't think any of us have ever encouraged the idea beyond in jest, that being one rank over another was really important. I don't think any of us have expected to be treated better because we were higher ranks or ever tried to make anyone feel small because they weren't of high rank. If I personally have, I really really apologise.
That said, then who are the "brass" we are blaming for this negative attitude towards ranks? Who are the ones who are making ensigns feel bad for being ensigns or who are bullying juniors into thinking it means something more to be a senior? I think we need to take a good long look at ourselves as well. I can try to change the promotions system, but if these attitudes still persist, there will be no point in enacting change.
From my end, I was a lt for 4 years before I was lt cmdr. I was really angry about it, NOT because I didn't get a rank, but because I felt my work wasn't being recognised. Maybe if I hadn't been so shy in OTF and so in awe of the seniors who knew each other so well I would have spoken up and let people know I was getting passed over. Unfortunately I didn't.
So, I would like to take the step here, that if anyone feels they have or are being passed over for work to email Lee or myself detailing why you think this and the work you've done for OTF and we will respond to it. email kayana at outpost10f.com or dmitri at outpost10f.com please.
That said, I have and will again deny people for promotions if I don't think they meet the promotion criteria. I've had hour-long arguments with department heads, team leaders, the individuals themselves but I still stick strongly to it. Promotions are meant to say thank you for work done and while I want to make them fun by adding chat ranks (see other thread) for those out there who spend hours fixing ISEs, working on chattops, submitting entries for the guilds, writing a million emails to their groups, co-ordinating trivias- we all want to say thank you. We don't want to give out promos just because everyone wants a new toy.
And yes, people will always disagree to me as to what constitutes enough work for a promo but Lee and I do try our very best, and if we deny a promotion we also tend to give suggestions on what we'd like to see next round. I don't want to discourage any of you from contributing to OTF so if you have been denied trust me, we're still rooting for you and we'll be more than happy to try to help you join depts/get more work suitable for you etc etc so that you can make it next round. (Buck, regarding your post, when exactly did you apply for depts? They're all recruiting now)
So yes, more fun ranks so that people can play with it and let's stop making people of lower rank feel inferior! In fact, if someone does make you feel that way in chat go and tell them so- they probably don't even realise it.
One last point:
Pols spoke of a dichotomy the brass encourage: "that ranks don't matter" and "ranks are for the deserving". The problem I see here, is that ranks do not equal a nascent class system. When you have a high rank it's supposed to be an award not indicate you are somehow superior to other chatters. As a matter of fact, given the amount of work seniors put in for the benefit of the juniors, you should all be pointing and laughing at CL7s for the amount of things they're doing for YOU. 
The question then is: WHO is attaching a class system to ranks? Who's making people feel ranks are that big a deal beyond the fun stuff you get with it? Because that's where the root of this issue lies I think.
My solution short of telling people off everytime I see it happen is to get rid of all this crap was to have a two system promos- one fun system with special toys for chattime alone for people to have fun with and one for dept works to say thank you for the work that goes behind the scenes. yep. I'm still very much for that. Maybe also more awards for things beyond dept work!
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 03:47
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Quoting: kayana That said, then who are the "brass" we are blaming for this negative attitude towards ranks? Who are the ones who are making ensigns feel bad for being ensigns or who are bullying juniors into thinking it means something more to be a senior?
On this note here from Kayana, I am meaning the brass by the senior enlisted, the folks that have the higher ranks and don't want them. And I never said anyone was making Ensigns or Lieutenants feel inferior, I don't believe that is true. I haven't seen anyone belittle someone for their rank.
Over the past year, 6 months, 3 months, last week. I have applied to most of the departments and groups several times. Like I said, I had to respectfully decline the job Comms offered me because it required me to be at a mandatory meeting every month and I cannot guarantee I will be on land at any time, I am in the Navy and I am actually out to sea right now and I usually do not get internet access. ISA turned me down months and months ago for the (aweful) reason I stated in one of my previous posts. I thought they wouldn't mind having a former OTF Security officer in a position. I applied for Admin and Operations a month or two ago.. and I recieved no reply from them. I applied to Community Resources a week or two ago. And I applied for all the guilds a long time ago and I was able to get onto Poetry, but that is it. That is the jist of my recent life in OTF.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 06:46
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I'm with Mike here. If you want my rank, have it. I'll work my way back up till I get it back, or just live with being CL4.
I know for a fact that I never turned applicants down unless they were "blacklisted" (meaning they'd been a member a few times and just screwed up over and over again) or they had troublemaker status. I did throw people out if they didn't work, didn't respond to emails, etc. But I gave them all several chances first. If you applied, chances were that you got in.
And I guess the "ranks don't matter" thing applies just as much as "if you want a higher rank, you have to work your way up". Ranks, in the chatroom, in friendships, in any sort of interpersonal reaction, should not matter. If you're snobby to someone because they're CL3 and you're CL6 then you're a sad, delusioned little fool who needs a life. To me, someone's rank does not matter. But having said that, if it matters to YOU and if YOU want a higher rank - do something for it.
By the same token, they're a sign that someone has at some point contributed to the community by working for it. I hear you on "supporting" OTF by chatting and attending events. But that's mostly for your own benefit, for your own enjoyment. I should think, anyway. Why do you need a promotion for it as well?
Another thing. Is it the rank you want, or the privileges? If there were no privileges would you still want a promotion, and vice versa?
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jaquaia
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 07:33 · Edited by: jaquaia
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Quoting: buck_murray And I applied for all the guilds a long time ago and I was able to get onto Poetry, but that is it.
Buck, I replied to the email you sent me about wanting to be in the WG, I also forwarded my reply to the SM, did you do what I suggested?
If you want to email me again to discuss it hten my email is jaquaia@outpost10f.com
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aeon
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 11:20
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As an executive of one department, I have to say, that it's just wrong to say that it's hard getting into a department. All you have to do is apply, and - of course - be willing to contribute to OTF and spend some time for departmental work. Rocket science is not a requirement in order to get into a department; in fact: quite a few departments are willing to give people a proper training. I'm a good example for that, because I had no HTML skills at all before I joined the OTF departments, and now I'm the Senior Designer. <i>That's</i> a part of why the departments at OTF are so special; because there's always someone there to lend a hand, if you are just willing to take it. The only "rules" we really have for the departments are that you have to be at least CL3 in rank, and not on the Troublemaker list. Sure, there are departments like ISA or InDev who only invite people but that's because they deal with the more sensitive part of OTF, but all the others are open for applications. Not really <i>that</i> difficult, is it?
Just apply. 
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 16:17
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Don't say it's not difficult until you've been passed over by your own friends for department work. Then you can come tell me how easy it is to get into a department.
And I'm sorry, but Buck and Feebs have a point...if you get stung by the departmental "we don't want you" bug, it is ten times harder to put yourself out there in the future. That goes for anything in life. People don't respond well to rejection, online or off. And when you say "but it's so easy to get in" what's that say for us who didn't get in? That we're somehow stupid or "less" or usless?
And frankly, without chatters, there would be no point to the departments. I am exceptionally grateful to those who have kept this place functioning on a technical level. But I'm also exceptionally grateful to the loyal chatters who keep coming. I don't see why there should be such a distinction between the two, one being "recongintion worthy" and the other ignored.
I personally do not care if I get promoted, demoted, or left as I am. I am loud enough and active enough that if the powers that be (which, btw, is merely a term to indicate those who make such decisions, a group of people who change over the years) know I'm here. I have no concerns about being "passed over". Nor do I care if I am.
Because the ranks are bull. If character mattered, I'd care. But it doesn't, that's been made perfectly clear (in this thread, and in certain decisions made over the past ten years). All that matters is "time served in a department." Again, made perfectly clear. That's the way it's always been, I don't see it changing any time soon, and I always have and always will disagree with the current system. I just decided it wasn't enough to drive me away from here.
I'll live with whatever decision gets made about the ranks. Just don't expect me to be quiet about it!!!!
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 17:38
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Thanks. I have been passed over in the past. Therefore, I do know what you're talking about. From what I've seen, it is currently much easier getting into a department nowadays.
I had more things to say, but I really don't know what I'd be typing right now.
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demonvamp
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 18:31
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I'll let most everyone into Ent. We have pie.
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daecrist
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 18:41
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I've been at the Outpost for a little over a decade now. I spent three of those years as an Ensign because I wasn't in the chat that much. I spent three more of those years in the Lt. ranks because of an SM who had it in for me.
At no time was it ever difficult to get into a department. If you want to join a department, if you're in the chat, and if you're active in the community then you probably won't have a problem getting into one. Competition used to be a lot more fierce for departmental positions as well, but people still did it. I even know of some high ranking people who started a new chat persona just to see how difficult it would be to get promoted, and they managed it fairly easily.
As for promotions: I would love to promote more people every month if they were up for promotion Each month we have a pool of people to choose from, with a lot at the bottom and fewer near the top. Unless you've been put on monitor then the promotions all the way to Lt. are pretty easy. If you're in a department doing work and get the attention of your SM then CL5 is pretty simple. Past that you have to make a more active contribution to the site, but again this isn't really a problem if you genuinely like the site and what you're doing in your department.
I would love to approve more promos, but there just aren't that many people consistently getting recommendations. The problem seems to be apathy on the part of people who are able to recommend rather than a problem with people who are deserving of promotions. I'm not sure what to do to fix that short of holding a gun to senior officer's heads and forcing them to make promotion recs every month.
So really, getting promoted isn't that difficult with a little effort.
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sg8472
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 19:07
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I get those reminders every month, but the last time I had any real knowledge of who deserved promotions was as Entertainment's AM1 and a TL. Since I resigned from those position, for college and such, the only way I have of telling if someone deserves a promotion is activity in chat. And there's the problem, as the chat isn't all that active, and even if it was, chat and behaviour alone only really apply to the lower CLs of which we don't have all that many nowadays, and of which I never see in chat anyway.
So, on those occasions I've paid attention to the reminders and gone to do promo recs I've been stumped by who and for what reason to promote. The only other option is to see the name of someone I know and like, and give the recommendation for that reason alone. Favouritism doesn't seem all that fair, and one of the main issues seemingly discussed here in regards to promotions and acceptance in to departments.
Although, in fairness, I never saw any favouritism when I was a TL or AM. But, yeah, like I said earlier, I don't want to talk in circles anymore. I only really wanted to post here to mention some of the obstacles to promo recs as I see them.
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 19:58 · Edited by: polson
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Quoting: daecrist At no time was it ever difficult to get into a department. If you want to join a department, if you're in the chat, and if you're active in the community then you probably won't have a problem getting into one.
Lies from the pit of hell! I was just as active as anybody back then and I was rejected three times from R&D alone and that was prior to Jeff Greenwald. I just simply don't buy it.
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 20:01
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Quoting: daecrist So really, getting promoted isn't that difficult with a little effort.
Oh? So tell me, Hal, how many more hours should I be putting in a month into OTF's departmental scene in order to prove myself worthy of recognition? I've been a CL5 for two years, active in two departments, one as a wiling volunteer prior to joining the department itself. And yet my work previous to being "official" doesn't count because it wasn't "official".
Why...I think I've found a plot hole.
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 20:05
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I make regular recommendations. I think I missed two, one because my computer was down and the other because I didn't see anyone on the list I could genuinely say "promote that person!"
I only make recommendations if I am sincere. If I see people contributing to the chat - in ANY positive way - and if I find them to be a person of character imho then I will recommend them, and let them know I've done so and why I've done so.
Er...I cant' remember what my point was. *hangs head in shame*
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2007 23:30
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I guess the only thing I'm finding out from this thread now is that Polson is unhappy.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 03:28
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So it should be easy to get into a department, just apply. Well I did. I tried. Aeon says just apply, I did. Daecrist says "So really, getting promoted isn't that difficult with a little effort." How much effort is that?... Is it more than being here the required amount of time, good conduct, being involved in several departments wihtin that time and even currently are involved in one. I am just trying to figure out now what I REALLY need to be doing because I think I have tried, as several people have suggested that is what I should do.
And maybe Polson IS unhappy. But she brings up a lot of good points.
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aeon
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 05:17 · Edited by: aeon
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So, basically... promote both Buck and Polson, and then close this thread.
I jest.
And everyone who wants to be in Engineering, should apply.
Or for Entertainment. Because they have pie. 
*makes a mental note of offering something to lure folks*
But to point it out again... apply. If you have been rejected years ago and still hold a grudge and think "Yeah, they rejected me back then, so they ALWAYS do that" - that's just wrong. You notice when a department gets new leadership, and that's usually a good time to apply again, if you really want to be in. Because... you know... they're new and stuff. 
In other words: apply!
*still looks for something to lure peoples*
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daecrist
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 06:27
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I really don't know how to appease someone who obviously has an axe to grind about the OTF Promotion system. It's worked fine for me, and for countless others who have worked their way up through the ranks over the years. If you have an idea for a better system, I'm talking a real plan for overhauling promotions to make it more egalitarian for all involved rather than a vague "promotions suck grr!" kneejerk, then by all means e-mail me or one of the Sector Commanders or the suggestion box and we'll get the ball rolling.
Otherwise I really don't know what to say, other than in my experience if someone isn't getting promoted or recruited into a department then it's usually the person and not the system that's stirring up trouble. Not saying that's the case here, just what I've noticed after running promotions for the past three years and working in leadership positions at OTF over the past four years or so.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 07:35
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I agree with Annie. If you're serious about being in a department, apply. QD, Annie and Mike have all said that they'll accept you. Well, unless you're a troublemaker in which case it IS your own fault.
And aside from that, I shall refrain from further comments. I've said everything I really had to. I don't want to annoy Buck et al by saying "If you want a promotion, work for it" nor do I want to downplay the amount of work that others have poured into OTF by saying "Promote people for chat time" or "Ranks don't mean anything".
So yarr. I can't say anything that won't annoy someone, so I won't say anything.
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 09:49
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Quoting: aeon Or for Entertainment. Because they have pie.
In addition to the pie, Trivia has cookies.
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aeon
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 10:21
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Trivia has cages, too, though!
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