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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 10:26
Reply
Yeah, but they're comfy cages....
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 10:40 · Edited by: polson
Reply
Quoting: daecrist If you have an idea for a better system, I'm talking a real plan for overhauling promotions to make it more egalitarian for all involved rather than a vague "promotions suck grr!" kneejerk, then by all means e-mail me or one of the Sector Commanders or the suggestion box and we'll get the ball rolling.
I have. I was shot down. How many times do you think I should go back to them with my same issue? I've tried being nice. I've tried being mean. I've tried being diplomatic, I've tried being sarcastic. No results. And telling people that if they can't get into a department it's because of them personally isn't really going to score points for the system with the locals, btw. And i don't remember saying promotions suck in this forum. I'm sure I've said it somewhere though. It wasn't my point though. My point was "it should be about more than department work."
And I'm not unhappy. I realized last night as I was drifting off that I was probably coming off that way and some comments here only confirm that.
I'm personally very happy, whatever rank I wind up being in the end of it all. There are a few folks who have been in high places who adore me to no end, why I don't really know, and they have gifted me as much as is possible within the OTF ranking system. I am...very, very, very touched by that. Especially seeing how I am a regular pain in the ass around here. I am very grateful for what CT and Hong and Jon and Iain have done for me; they've shown that years of loyalty to this place mean something to them. They've honored me in a way the promotion system will never be able to.
But not everyone has that. Which is why I argue. That and I like to argue. I really wish everyone who puts heart into this place could be honored for it.
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daecrist
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 11:06 · Edited by: daecrist
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Polson, if you're just going to argue for the sake of argument then there's really no point in continuing the debate in the first place. Anything anyone has said is just an opening for another attack, so what's the point? You can be proud of yourself all you want for being contrary on the forums, but at the end of the day it's just trolling no matter how you justify it.
Like I said, if you have issues with promotions and you have a plan for fixing it then e-mail me or one of the sector commanders. Maybe people weren't listening in the past, but I'm telling you that I'm willing to listen now. Please don't lambast me and the other SCs for problems that came up when we weren't even around.
Beyond that I don't know what I can say here to make you happy, or if that's even possible at this point.
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 13:04
Reply
Hal,l I'm not trying to be contrary for the sake of being contray. I genuinely believe the current system is faulty and I genuinly think it needs to change and I genuinely think it won't get changed. I'm not attempting to attack you or anyone - when I attack, there won't be any question as to whether or not it's an attack, I am horribly scathing and merciless, a fact of which I am not proud, it's just true.
I'm disagreeing with you. I think it's okay to disagree with each other, but that's a cardnal sin around here sometimes.
And I'm not asking you to make me happy. Did I say that somewhere?
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 13:21
Reply
AND I already said my three plans for fixing the promotion system in these threads. Apparently no one was listening.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 14:56
Reply
Quoting: aeon Trivia has cages, too, though!
Yes, Trivia has cages, and the DLs have whips.
Fun times. 
Sorry, had to be said. 
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 15:10
Reply
Whips, cages...I'm in the wrong department.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 15:12
Reply
Well I am done with this thread. I started it and now I am done. It is kind of pointless as some people have said already. No need to bother anyone with complaints.
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 15:25
Reply
Yep, whips. In fact, I have a whip right now, in real life.
It's part of my Halloween costume! 
I'm Indiana Jones, not.... that.
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Feeble
Moderator
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 16:19
Reply
Can I ask a much more serious question?
Is it not a problem that we can't talk about these things without degenerating into silly quips about stuff? I mean, I know we're an internet community that is here for fun and all that stuff, but on the other hand, if we are trying to discuss these ideas in the open, shouldn't everyone be heard and not told that they're blatantly wrong.
I believe this forum is more or less done. But, gotta say, felt the prejudice and felt the love, this place can either be extremely hospitable or extremely bitter - I think we've just seen some incredibly good examples of that on this forum.
Not to mention - I understand we can't do anything about changing this place until we work out the server (Thank-you HAL for filling us in) but I ask the really important question again:
What can the average chatter do in the meantime to try and raise awareness about the place? Do we have an onus to attend more, to bring more people in, to get more involved in events? Yes, the place is dying, but it's not all the fault of HOW this place works, because it's worked before, so let us discuss here and now what we do as chatters, without bells and whistles to liven this place up.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 16:25
Reply
Quoting: Feeble Is it not a problem that we can't talk about these things without degenerating into silly quips about stuff?
I think that happened because people felt that everything had been said. I mean, we can discuss things, but eventually when opinions start getting re-stated we're just going in circles.
I have a short attention span. Well, I don't, but it reaches the end at some point.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 16:30
Reply
Yes thank you Hal for filling us in.
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babel
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 16:36
Reply
'Time Served in a Department' was only one criteria when I was a sector commander. I considered a lot of other things. I also tried to boost the awards we gave out - and to me this is still a good 'quick victory' way of addressing the issues of rewarding people. But why can't people de promoted for simply adding to the community? I can think of at least one person who was promoted to CL7 on the back of their contribution to the OTF community as a whole.
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babel
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 16:42
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I am not saying our system is perfect. I think a *constructive* debate and exchange of ideas would be good. I think the core of the system we have should remain but there is plenty we can do to tweak it. I don't accept that things are unchangeable. If they are unchangeable, in some people's opininos - why bother posting in this thread?
I post opinions as I think they *will* have an effect. I am willing to participate in the 'OTF change' threads as I think we can effect postivie and necessary changes. We can, to quote a famous starship captain, 'make a difference'.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 17:34
Reply
Quoting: babel But why can't people de promoted for simply adding to the community? I can think of at least one person who was promoted to CL7 on the back of their contribution to the OTF community as a whole.
Fair point. Very good point, in fact, and come to think of it, so can I.
However. I do NOT believe that JUST because you've been a member for umpteen years and as such have benefited from others' work without doing much yourself, or JUST because you come and chat, you deserve a promotion. No, you shouldn't have to do department work in order to get promoted. But you should have to do something other than come around and chat. Otherwise we'd end up promoting everyone just because, and that, I believe, is slightly beside the point. 
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 19:17
Reply
Of course Bria, I do not know who has said someone should be promoted just because they have been here a while. If I made it sound that way I didn't mean that. I know that I was talking about me being here for a long, long time and also having department experience including some right now. I hope that you haven't misunderstood me on that, but if this doesn't apply to your post, then disregard this. Thank you 
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 21:07
Reply
The way I see it, we're already at one extreme when it comes to promotions. I am not advocating we swing to the opposite extreme. I'm saying "loyalty, character and chat time should count as well as departmental work, and count equally." That would be the definition of balance in this situation, no? It would also allow for public recognition of people who are not in a department, same as the current system allows for "less than reputable" persons to receive recognition for their html wizardry (I think we can't plausibly deny there have been the occational member who shamed the senior ranks).
And I'm a pessimist, I know that, and I know it drives some people nuts. Be consoled that optimists drive me just as nuts. But I'm a stubborn pessimist. Feeling like I am going unheard doesn't keep me from speaking my mind (I think I've proven that in recent weeks  ).
P.S. I stomp around and talk loudly. That's who I am. I know that I am frustrating; I just don't always care.
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 23:22
Reply
Yep, circles.
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buck_murray
Member
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2007 23:26
Reply
O <--- circle.
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kayana
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 03:56
Reply
Well pols, I guess it's easier to judge people on dept work than loyalty and character. We try to make the system as unjudgemental/non-subjective as we can and if I start promoting people because of my personal opinion of them that's gonna be a problem.
I really agree with you that there are quite a few loyal lts who've really given a lot to this site and I would like to reward them as well but it's a narrow line y'kow? Gotta think about that myself *puts on thinking hat*
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ajcardall
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 06:32
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I have to sneak this complaint in, just because.
I believe the system isn't 'working' that great simply because there is too much crap in the way, and by crap I mean red-tape. You have to jump through hoops and then fill out forms in triplicate to be noticed.
People have a point here. Every now and then people SHOULD be rewarded for loyalty and dedication, not because they've managed project x for y months.
Polson has probably contributed more to OTF than I have over the years, but I'm the one with the CL7 rank and doo-dah. Did I earn it? Perhaps, but for everything I've earned so has Polson - and others.
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daecrist
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 06:53
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I don't see why everyone is fixated on someone needing advanced technical knowledge to advance in a department. We have plenty of people who know jack and squat about HTML, PHP, MySQL, Photoshop, CSS, and all that jazz who have advanced through the ranks with no problem whatsoever.
Character, time spent chatting, and general contributions to the community in the chat rooms is also considered and part of the promotion recommendations. I've been approving promotions for three years now, and there hasn't been a single promotions cycle where I haven't taken those factors into consideration. There have been several people who have had advanced technical know-how, but who were consistently refused promotions because they were complete asshats otherwise.
I guess I just don't see what the complaint is. You say we should reward character and loyalty, but that's already a big consideration when promoting someone. Working in a department and giving back to the community is the other half, and if we were to start handing out Captain and Commodore to people just because they'd been here for X amount of years then we'd be tipping the balance in the completely opposite direction.
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 08:42
Reply
Equally. How many times can I say it? Equally. Equally, equally, equally.
It's not equal or certain people wouldn't have made it as far as they have and certain people who are not in a department would be higher than they are.
I'm not saying hand out Captain and Commodore. But I dare say there's a couple ranks inbetween CL4 and CL7. And I'm not saying make it easy to acheive those ranks through chatime and loyalty either.
"Every now and then people SHOULD be rewarded for loyalty and dedication, not because they've managed project x for y months. " AJ
Thank you!!! Thank you for getting my point!
And now that one person gets what I'm trying to say, I'll leave ya'll alone.
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sg8472
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 08:56
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Isn't that what the awards are for? To try and reward people for loyalty and dedication?
Promotions are for those who've made an effort to improve the community beyond simply logging in and staying there for a while, because that's what we all do (or did, as it stands nowadays). If there were no departments, there'd likely be no worthwhile promotions either.
What it seems we're giving out about now is who deserves to get the shiny toys and access privileges. Would we be even discussing promotions if every registered member could use custom avatars?
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ajcardall
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 10:04
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If no people - like Pols - logged in, there'd be no community.
And let's be fair, nearly all of the awards require at least "minor departmental efforts". And 99% of the awards go to departmental members.
So no, I don't accept that people will view the rewards as an alternative to promotions.
People like Polson, who chat regularly for years and years, and create a sense of community, do more work than some departmental members, but they get over looked because they're not in a department. It is not fair on them at all.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 10:40
Reply
Quoting: ajcardall If no people - like Pols - logged in, there'd be no community.
Fair point. But if you're going to go by that, you'd have to promote everyone who logs in. That's not the point, is it? I mean, rewarding people for coming in and chatting is kind of beside the idea, imho.
Don't misunderstand that. I get the whole "contribution outside of department work" thing. I think it's a good idea. Not "comes in regularly, let's promote" but "comes around and makes the chat more fun for everyone, always has valuable opinions, helps out, etc". I think that department membership shouldn't be a the be-all and end-all, as in, you get the situation where people say "Yeah, s/he deserves a promotion, but s/he's not in a department so we can't promote him/her". That's equally stupid as saying "Yep, they're idiots and no one likes them, but they do their department work and fulfill the other official requirements, so let's promote them.
I guess I don't like stiff, bureaucratic regulations and stuff. My only problem with what you're saying, Polson, is that if they change it to what you want then it opens up another avenue for people getting promoted when they don't deserve it (not YOU, definitely not you, but other people who whine more and do less), and another avenue for complaints.
On the other hand, if on rare occasions you can get promoted without being in a department, people would stop applying for same just for the sake of getting promoted, and then never do any work. Been there, as well.
It couldn't hurt to make the system a bit more flexible. 'course then you'll get the old "cliques" and "favouritism" complaints again... but we get those anyway.
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majin_fett
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 10:55
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The way I see is that no matter what we do, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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bria
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 11:21
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Mike, this is why I advocate common sense. Trouble is that many people lack it, and it can't be systemised.
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ajcardall
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 11:24
Reply
Or departmentalised.
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polson
Member
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# Posted: 1 Nov 2007 13:03
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Bria, AJ, thank you for your love. *l* I certainly do not deserve your affections. It is duely noted and appreciated and when one day I rule OTF I will make you guys king and queen.
Bria, I can see how that could happen if the promotion guidlines were too wishy washy. I think that problem could be sorted out, if people were willing to work on it.
If people are joining departments simply to be promoted, I'd seriously question their contributions. I'm certainly not asking for departmental work not to matter, especially in the higher ranks. I'm asking for some broader qualifications, especially in the middle ranks.
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