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Outpost 10F Forums / OTF v3 Ideas / what happend?
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kaela_donos
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 16:49
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what happened?

No more talk? No testing or revisions?

kaela_donos
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 16:49
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No bata sites or new email systems or new jobs? you take away teams resources, you don't give us a method to hire new people, and then you wonder what is going wrong?

Talking is great, if there is listing, testing, and follow up.

Amun
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 16:54
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Well, I wont speak for the administration.

But things can only happen so fast.

Iain and Ohm are both apprently bogged down with life, or so HAL told me, and people can't expect them to drop out of school or what have you, to do work for OTF.

I hope things are happening, but without significant changes from the community and basic structure of the Outpost, things will be slow. I told HAL I'd help any way I could, just the question of what I'm allowed to do.

skevington
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 17:04
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Greetings Kaela,

You may well have noticed that in your inbox you have an email from the Team Leaders mailing list. You will also observe that myself and Hobbie have been appointed Team Coordinators. This afternoon i have wrote up a document explaining how the process will be for recruiting new members.

Both myself and Hobbie are waiting for a response from Iain and Hal. Which will hopefully come some time today. Things are not sitting still and things are happening. But as far as the coding side goes it can only happen so fast.

Kaela, i would recommend reading your email and sending me and Hobbie the information we asked for.

The team structure is now extremely different from the old departmental structure and i am sure you'll find you have much more freedom to work on team projects without senior department management peering over your shoulder.

Regards,


Dmitri

kaela_donos
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 17:26
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Quoting: Amun
But things can only happen so fast.


I feel as my point is being missed by some, but not all! I want to be clear and I like metaphors so here is one.

What happened was that the new administration tore out the aqueducts and then said; oh we are giving each village a well! Then, after the aqueducts were torn out they started digging the wells. My criticism is that they should have started the work on the wells months before the tore out the aqueducts! Now, each well starts with a whole, but what kind of well can be determined latter, so they could have started digging the wholes and then talked and revised the final idea before making it final. So they could have started out with, we are going to give you and open well, and started digging the whole, and as they go they could have listen to critic of this open well system and then gone back and added a roof and make it a closable as they worked on it. And then after the new well has been dug and while the roof is being put on then the aqueduct could be torn down!

I am not saying, why was this whole not dug in an hour! I am saying there are a few steps missing and things are being done out of order. So I am not critzing the lack of time people have, because I don’t have any time!

Also i didn't get an email. no updates post? but yay emails!

kaela_donos
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 17:30
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I am also mostly talking about team organizations, which requires some coding but mostly talking to people. (not the big room chat change which is a different issue)

Amun
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 17:32
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True, I agree with you. Perhaps people shouldn't have gotten "The Axe" before things were complete, but having a bunch of people not doing work, or something similarly useless, was a part of the problem?

majin_fett
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 17:58 · Edited by: majin_fett
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Do you read other threads on this forum, Kaela?

I guess my real point with this post (which isn't apparent at all in my first sentence, which is my fault) is that do we really need to make another thread about why nothing is happening? This, to me, is a completely and utterly redundant thread. This leads to a thread that was discussing the exact same thing that this brand new, yet still the same, thread is.

daecrist
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 19:15
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Nothing is not happening. As I've said before, it's taken this long to secure financing, move the Outpost to a new server, and get everything working. Even now not everything on the backend is working as it did on the old server. Right now we're in a bit of a lull on the technical side because Iain and Ohm are both busy with school and/or their jobs. There is only so much that two men can do.

We're organizing the Teams behind the scenes as well. You should have been included on the Team Leaders list but it looks like it got lost in the initial shuffle about a month back. You've been added and will be filled in asap. You could have found all this out by just IMing me.

mezoti
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 22:01
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...I'm really quite sick of people getting annoyed because things aren't happening quick enough for their liking.

Life happens. Period.

majin_fett
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 23:24
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It's called the "microwave generation", m'dear. If things aren't done in 30 seconds or less, they're not worth it.

polson
Member
# Posted: 24 Apr 2008 23:37
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What I think people aren't understanding is that we got thrown a curveball (sudden server swap) in the midst of our changes which has set back some things, and forced other things to happen sooner than what would be the most efficient. Ideally yeah, everything happens smoothly. But we live in reality where that doesn't happen.

To go back to the analogy, if your old well suddenly ceased to function before the new well was dug and completed, you'd have to scramble pretty damn fast to get a working well, however unfinished it is...

And while there's a bunch of complaints about the lack of leadership at the moment, I can't say that the over all functioning of OTF has been damaged by the lack of deparments and red tape. Sure, there are some things that are hanging in the balance right now (no special events, i.e. April fools) but in general things are still running along. My team is functioning basicly the same as before (yay Blue Report!) and I don't think we're suffering for the dismantlement.

Really, what's happened is we've been forced to take ownership of OTF. For example, if the April Fools self destruct thingy was really that important to me, I was perfectly within my rights to go to the EC a month in advance with a short term project proposal. And I've had done it too, except I honestly didn't have the time - my real life, however lame, is a priority.

So if there is some area that's lacking and you're concerned, there's nothing stopping you from shooting off an email to Dmitri and Hobbie, ask if it falls under a specific team, if it does you can certainly email that team leader and ask how you can help. If there is no team assigned and you're inclined, there's nothing saying you can't volunteer for the project and draw up a proposal.

I had a boss once who refused to hear us describe a problem unless we also brought with it a solution. I think that was wise - never had I received such a clear picture of the old adage, "if you're not part of the solution, you're a part of the problem." I've said it before around here. Instead of saying "well, you really oughta go back in time and undo what's been done because I don't like how it's working," come to the table with a solution.

Feeble
Moderator
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 00:39 · Edited by: Feeble
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Alright - I know we've got multiple forums and whatnot, but I'm gonna answer here - people keep saying that people are pissed that things haven't happened 'immediately' or that they're not happening quick enough. Not so.

From my perspective, I was doing some hard work to try and bring poetry guild up to scratch, to do new and interesting things with it, to take it out of 'competition land', and I had done a lot of work in the background - just as Iain and Ohm are doing constantly. Then one day, I was simply told Poetry was being axed and merged with writers. There was no appeal process that I could take, and no avenue in which I could fight for what had been done and I had to grin and bear, and just go over to writers. Fine. Then I was told that writers was going to become more 'fan-based', which I can only interpret as being 'fan-fic', which to the least I feel is a limiting outlook on what this community can do and achieve. Well, yes, immaturely, I spat the dummy and stopped coming in at all.

And yet, despite my team no longer existing, my project now being merged with something that I have a say in, but I no longer have any creative control over, I am still on the team-leaders mailing list. I have asked why I am, and received no answer, but yet as requested the emails have now been put into my regular email address. This is all fine, but my standing in the outpost is confused - and I am not the only one.

As for the talk on the leaders list, it is on a continuous loop. No one is hearing anything. I've diligently read everything received, because I felt it was the right thing to do, and to my view, it seems leaders get asked the same questions and answer, and then there's silence, and then in order to make it appear like something is going on, they get asked the questions again.

I don't think that most of us are children, most of us understand that things take time, most of us definitely have a life that takes precedence over OTF, and most of us aren't looking for an over night fix. Yes, it must be tedious and frustrating Hal, to put up a post even once a month saying 'Sorry we're going slowly, but this is what has happened over the last month', we just need some sort of 'we've still got our eyes on the prize'.

The problem with the teams, as I see it, is that people keep being told they have stuff they should be thinking about doing, but what is the infrastructure for people to go ahead and /do/ what they want to do?

Anyway, everyone needs to stop name calling, acknowledge that there is miscommunication, set up some sort of timetable where there /must/ be communication, no matter how mundane, and then people need to be told when they need to hold off on ideas, and what they can practically do to stop the back progress - otherwise, everyone is just going to tear each other apart, and quite frankly there won't be an outpost to save. People are being so increasingly belittled, hurt and undermined that what are we trying to do the best by? Go back, think, what is the thing that we all seemed to agree that we wanted to save? The community? Or the funky features of the chat?..

daecrist
Member
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 02:04
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Feeble, if you have an idea for a Poetry team and you have people in it then by all means present it on the Team Leaders list. The consolidation talk was back before we took a more open attitude towards team creation. So write up what you want to see Poetry doing and who you would hire on your team and go for it.

The repetitiveness on the Team Leaders list is mainly because we just brought Dmitri and Hobbie in and they need to be brought up to speed. My apologies if this seems a bit repetitive, but it was necessary to give them an idea of what's going on.

Feeble
Moderator
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 03:35
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Once again, the point has been missed. I am simply using my situation as an example of what people are finding irritating. I have no doubt that there is a lot going on behind the scenes. But everyone's reaction to everyone at the moment is entirely knee jerk - we think everyone is trying to criticise, and dismantle - and what example does this lead to Junior officers, or how does this place any faith in who is leading us, and furthermore with future direction?

Older chatters are feeling undermined and as if they are not being communicated to - and most importantly under-appreciated. This leads to disillusionment. Now, maybe (and I strongly hope this is not the case) we do just want to clean all the old blood out so that we can rebuild anew with new expectations, rather than cling to something that doesn't exist anymore - and that would be fine too, if that were the message we were being fed to the community.

However, as the perametres have been set up, it seems that you want our help - and in this, we need communication, we need to know whether we're stamping our feet for a reason, or we need to know that there is financial problems - as we did when it came to a head. The problem being, we feel as if we're being dictated to and teams are no longer helpful, they are simply a drain on resources, or are uninformed to the 'realities of how this chat actually works'. Whether people realise it or not, a lot of us have been here for a long time, and it can sting quite a bit when there is finger pointing, or when there is petty bickering, or when there is a subtle implication of 'you don't know what you're talking about', from all sides. This undermines what has always been a quintessential part of OTF - friendship and community, and fun. Have we all forgotten how to have fun?

I think there's also a lot of uncertainty about where we're going as a group, so how do we plan for the future when we don't know where we're headed? How do you formulate projects for a thing that is on tentative ground as is? When a department or team can beurocratically be shut down because there's not an 'open attitude' then why put in the effort when the next day it may not 'fit' with a direction that we aren't being told is established yet... if that makes sense.

People want to help, but we aren't being told how. If that's to sit back and shut our mouths for a while about change, then tell us to do so, but please keep us informed on the movements...

daecrist
Member
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 04:57
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Quoting: Feeble
we think everyone is trying to criticise, and dismantle


We're not trying to criticise anyone, but we are trying to dismantle the old system. It's causing a bit of confusion, confusion that we're working out at the moment. I'm hoping that putting Lee and Hobbie on the task of organizing the Teams as we move away from Departments will aid in this transition.

Quoting: Feeble
we feel as if we're being dictated to and teams are no longer helpful, they are simply a drain on resources, or are uninformed to the 'realities of how this chat actually works'. Whether people realise it or not, a lot of us have been here for a long time, and it can sting quite a bit when there is finger pointing, or when there is petty bickering, or when there is a subtle implication of 'you don't know what you're talking about', from all sides.


I don't know where you're seeing this attitude, but it couldn't be farther from the truth. The whole point of eliminating the departments was to give teams more freedom, not to dictate to people. We're intentionally creating a hands-off management system where anyone who has a good idea for a Team can e-mail the Team Coordinators and get started with our blessing. I don't really see how a team can be a drain on resources when it takes very little to keep them going. Just a mailing list and dedicated people.

Quoting: Feeble
When a department or team can beurocratically be shut down because there's not an 'open attitude' then why put in the effort when the next day it may not 'fit' with a direction that we aren't being told is established yet... if that makes sense.


I'm afraid it doesn't really make sense to me. We aren't closing teams down, and we definitely aren't coming down on people because they don't fit in with some grand future vision of OTF. The grand future vision of OTF, as far as the Teams go, is that everything should be open and everyone should have a chance to try out their ideas. If you have an idea and you want to make a team out of it then recruit a few people and get started! What's the harm in trying?

Now if, after half a year or so, there hasn't been any progress and none of the goals set by that team have been met, then it might be time to consider moving on to something else. But we are not arbitrarily shutting people down. Quite the opposite. Here in a few days we'll have procedures set up for people to contact the Team Coordinators if they want to start a new team, but we just created the positions a couple days ago and it takes a little time to hammer things out.

Quoting: Feeble
People want to help, but we aren't being told how. If that's to sit back and shut our mouths for a while about change, then tell us to do so, but please keep us informed on the movements...


This is one area where I'm really not sure what to say. We've made updates as major changes have taken place. We've communicated on mailing lists, IM, and in the chats. And I've been trying to respond to questions as they crop up in the forums when I have some spare time. I don't really know what more could be done at this point, because the command level is already about as transparent as I remember it being since I became a DSC five years ago.

We could post a Departmental Update every time Iain makes a small change to the backend, or every time one of us goes on a brief "OTF Vacation" because of work, school, or something else, but I imagine that would start to get old after awhile. We're doing the best that we can as quickly as we can with limited time and resources, but all things take time.

Feeble
Moderator
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 05:08
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Hal, I am not attacking you. I don't envy your position in this, I'm sure it's been trying and incredibly difficult, and at most times tiring.

I'm simply putting out what I have heard, what people are saying - and repeatedly being /told/ they shouldn't feel. But you can't tell someone not to feel something. If these things are being communicated across the chanels, then I am telling you, for some people the messages aren't getting put across, and they're still feeling this way. Maybe it's sour grapes, maybe it's fatigue, or maybe it's justified. I don't know, but I do know that no matter how much 'we are not doing this, you shouldn't feel this way, we want your ideas' etc etc is going on, the message isn't getting through - this is the way a lot of people are feeling, abandoned and hurt.

And I'd say that that's not isolated to a single side of the fence... I think we probably all have a lot more in common in our aims than our grievances...

daecrist
Member
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 05:36 · Edited by: daecrist
Reply 


Quoting: Feeble
Maybe it's sour grapes, maybe it's fatigue, or maybe it's justified. I don't know, but I do know that no matter how much 'we are not doing this, you shouldn't feel this way, we want your ideas' etc etc is going on, the message isn't getting through


Perhaps it is a bit of sour grapes. At this point I really don't know how any other way I can say "please pitch your ideas so we can make a team."

Feeble
Moderator
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 06:01
Reply 


Just heard a rather good idea, so those of us who are passionate about the whole thing have a specific place to go to find out what is going on. Why not set up a blog, with some sort of graph or chart with objectives that get marked off as it goes along. Also, this allows certain posts that address individual issues, and then people can comment, or read specifically on certain issues.

The problem with the forums, is that we now have how many threads about V3, and all of them end in generally spilling off into a different set of in jokes. This at least would allow the eyes on target and on the prize, and that way, people who are happy to go with the flow don't need to be dragged into the debate either.

This would probably give a firmer grip on /who/ is in fact interested too. If it then was a smaller group, then you could make a new 'team' or whatever.

I know this sounds like another layer of stuff, but people are more likely to bookmark a blog and check in periodically than they are to stay up to date with forums, or check updates all the time - as silly as that sounds - and also, for those of us who are not on IM lists with the movers and the shakers of the Senior officers, how are we meant to know day to day what's going on?

Anyway, I thought it was a good idea. Means partly a solution for the suggestion box too... maybe.

polson
Member
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 07:40
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Maybe I'm just nosy, but I go out of my way to ask the movers and shakers what's going on...

polson
Member
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 07:43
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And to my understanding the suggestion box doesn't work right now...send your emails to Cinna! Actually I just volunteered her. I don't know who you should send them to.

christena
Member
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 17:36
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yes.. sadly the Suggestion Box is broken again
If you send them to me..I'll make sure they get to the right peeps..
christena @ outpost10f.com

Cinna

paulcarolan
Member
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 22:48
Reply 


Just read a few comments above and as a chat room user, I think this is an excellent site with a great, humorous and civilised community. Please don't be do hard on yourselves!

tiamai
Member
# Posted: 26 Apr 2008 11:55
Reply 


Quoting: majin_fett
It's called the "microwave generation", m'dear. If things aren't done in 30 seconds or less, they're not worth it.

So glad I have missed the microwave generation, it sounds very unfufilling

Besides, we got a snogging function in the armory, what else do we need?

fat_man
Member
# Posted: 27 Apr 2008 03:46
Reply 


More Pictures of Me or of Tin, i still have that one of him with a nail through his hand. Was quite manly.

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